Her emphasis is on human rights and the necessity of its implementation, stating that if the human dignity of migrants is not respected, it is essentially a violation of human rights. She is Dr. Sima Samar, the Special Representative of the President and Minister of State for Human Rights Affairs in Afghanistan.
The issue of Afghan migrants and what they go through is the special topic of this issue of the Peace Line magazine. Therefore, we arranged to have a conversation with Dr. Sima Samar, the Minister of Human Rights Affairs in Afghanistan, who was the first Minister of Women’s Affairs in this country between 2001 and 2002. In the interview, she was first asked about the number of Afghan migrants in Iran, but she stated that there is no accurate and specific data and emphasized that “I don’t think anyone knows the exact number.”
Dr. Samar also mentioned that poverty and insecurity are the two main factors driving Afghan migration out of the country, stating that “in countries where there is
Is there accurate statistics available from Afghan government or independent institutions regarding the number of Afghan citizens who have migrated to Iran?
As far as I know, unfortunately we do not know the exact number of Afghan immigrants in Iran. I personally do not have any responsibility in this matter. The Ministry of Afghan Immigrants is responsible for this. But I believe no one knows the exact number.
Does it mean that there is no specific number?
Good. A few days ago, when the Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs was in Kabul, it was said that there are about four million Afghan immigrants in Iran. However, the actual number of immigrants in Iran is not clear because some of them may not be registered.
The internal wars and the subsequent attack of America on Afghanistan are among the main reasons for the start of the wave of migration of the Afghan people to Iran. Besides these reasons, what other reasons attract the people of Afghanistan towards Iran?
One of the major problems that migrants are forced to face, whether in Iran, Pakistan, or other countries, is the issue of lack of security and restrictions in Afghanistan. We all know that unfortunately, the war is still ongoing in Afghanistan. Another problem is poverty and unemployment in Afghanistan. As you know, in countries where there is war, the majority of the budget is spent on military issues. Social services are not considered as a fundamental issue and poverty among the people increases. Because social services are not provided properly, the number of children in families increases, which in turn leads to an increase in poverty. Of course, there is also a large number of migrants who have stayed in Iran due to instability in their own country, but I do not in any way reject the presence of new migrants.
In your opinion, is poverty a central issue?
Poverty and security. Most young people living in Iran are workers. Unfortunately, in Iran, Pakistan, and Arab countries, we have a large number of Afghan workers.
The question is, how much attention is given to the difficult and exhausting work situation of Afghan citizens in Iran and their inadequate living and residency conditions in Afghanistan?
“I don’t know how many people are involved in this problem and issue. It is expected that workers, both legally and otherwise, in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and elsewhere, have a dignified life and are treated with dignity as human beings. Their human dignity should be respected. Because if their human dignity is not respected, it is a violation of human rights wherever they may be.”
How sensitive are human rights organizations in Afghanistan or Iran and other UN-affiliated organizations to the situation of migrants in Iran? Have there been any international efforts to monitor the situation of migrants in forced settlement camps such as Sefid Sang?
Since I went to Iran in 1990, I haven’t seen Iran again. I cannot judge until I see the tangible realities and the situation of society. But the reality is that unfortunately, very shocking and bad news comes. Of course, there is also good news. But there are also news and an example of recent events (such as the Harirud incident). But I cannot judge. Human rights institutions in Afghanistan, of course, have more freedom in their activities than we do. But I do not know the exact situation inside Iran. Because when I was the head of the Independent Human Rights Commission of Afghanistan, Iran had an institution called the Islamic Human Rights Commission, which was under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Iran. When Ahmadinejad became president, that office and institution were practically closed and shut down. Therefore, I do not have much contact. Although we tried to stay in touch with human rights institutions in Iran, unfortunately, we were not successful.
There are two perspectives. One perspective obligates Iran to accept immigrants. The other perspective says that Iran is doing a favor by accepting immigrants. In your opinion, which perspective is in accordance with international laws, conventions, and human rights treaties?
It is obligatory to consider from a correct perspective. Because I myself was an immigrant in Pakistan for many years. This acceptance of immigrants is a humanitarian act and a way to respect human dignity. When human dignity is questioned and violated, it is not the right thing to do. This issue, in my opinion, knows no borders. Even if we consider it as a favor from a country, this favor is part of humanitarian and human-friendly actions. It is true that borders should be respected, but we are all human beings. Every person who is in trouble should be helped by another human being. This is my perspective. I am not speaking on behalf of international laws. Afghan immigrants were present in Iran during difficult times, such as the Iran-Iraq war, and they were doing low-paying jobs. This issue is also important and needs to be addressed. This is my belief.
Iran and Afghanistan have many linguistic, cultural, and historical links with each other. However, the presence of Afghan citizens in Iran has created discussions between guests and hosts. Where do you think the roots of these discussions and issues lie?
The borders that have been drawn around us create a series of issues. I want to say that in the current situation of Iran, I am grateful to them for hosting our migrants. We all know that the pressure on Iran is extremely high. In the situation we are in in Afghanistan, if our neighboring countries were to return Afghan migrants to our country, I don’t know how much we can welcome these migrants who are returning to the country. There are millions of Afghan migrants in Iran and Pakistan. We must thank the people of Iran and Pakistan for providing a place and refuge for the people of Afghanistan. In addition, they are beneficial to the economy of our neighboring countries.
How can we use this cultural link as a potential for more communication between these two countries?
Let’s not forget that there are many cultural, linguistic, and religious ties between Iran and Afghanistan. It is evident that the border provinces of the two countries are greatly influenced by each other. For example, Herat cannot be unaffected by Mashhad, and vice versa. They have an impact on each other. Iran and Afghanistan should sit down and have an honest conversation about where the fundamental problem lies. The people and governments of Iran and Afghanistan should decide how to solve the existing problems. There must be political commitment and serious honesty in this area. And this is not impossible if the issue is seen as a humanitarian and human rights issue with sincerity.
You were the first Minister of Women’s Affairs in Afghanistan. One fundamental issue regarding the rights of Afghan citizens in Iran is the discussion of Afghan women in Iran. Do you have any information about their situation, especially now that we are in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic? Please share your evaluation and perspective.
I do not have specific statistics and information. I was only in the Ministry of Women for six months in 2002. Since then, many years have passed. In the current situation, I cannot make a proper judgment because not everything is accessible and my information is not sufficient.
You are an international human rights activist. What social rights should immigrants have in Iran that are in line with international norms?
Every country is different. According to the Iranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, even during the coronavirus pandemic, services that are offered to Iranians at a reasonable price can also be used by Afghan immigrants. However, when the coronavirus spread from Qom in Iran, a large number of Afghan immigrants, most of whom were young people who had gone to Iran for work, became scared and started to return to Afghanistan. Some of them claimed that medical services were not being provided well for us in Iran. This is their claim and I do not want to be in a situation where I judge. Social services, such as the right to work with dignity, should be available for immigrants from any country. There are also Iraqi immigrants in Iran. If the basis of treatment is respect for human dignity, there will be no problem.
What is your opinion on granting citizenship to children born to an Iranian mother and Afghan father? Do you have any knowledge about this issue and its problems?
We had one or two issues that they had complained about. Mothers who were Iranian and fathers who were Afghan. They had problems with citizenship for this issue. But we haven’t had more than two or three cases in all these years. I don’t know what the laws are in Iran regarding this matter. In European and American countries, when one of the parents is a citizen of that country, their children automatically receive citizenship of that country.
Based on the information you have, to what extent does the standard of living of Afghan citizens in Iran correspond with what is known as a comfortable and dignified life?
Families whose parents have good jobs are also well-off. For example, doctors who were in Iran. Afghan doctors who were in Iran during the Iran-Iraq war had a good income. However, those who work in brick kilns or quarries, or those who work in poultry farms and do not have legal and legitimate documents, naturally do not have a good income. Of course, it is possible that they may or may not have good jobs. There are opportunistic people everywhere who take advantage of the desperation of others.
If you need to mention any point at the end, please do so.
Thank you, I would like to emphasize once again that human rights values are fundamental and essential. We are Muslims. Nowhere in the Quran and the clear religion of Islam does it say that you cannot establish other laws. Human rights values and laws are values and laws that know no boundaries and promote the foundation of human life while preserving human dignity. These values do not conflict with any religion or belief in my opinion. If we look at these values, all our problems regarding the relationship between Iran and Afghanistan can be solved. The right of both nations is to prosper. I remember when I was young during the time of Mohammad Daoud Khan, the people of Afghanistan used to go to Iran for work. Why don’t we make these relationships more humane, legitimate and legal?
I am in favor of the implementation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and its additional conventions regarding Afghan migrants in Iran. Of course, this should be adapted to the laws of each country. If the laws of countries are based
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