The transfer of the capital was one of the topics that has been discussed since the beginning of the fourteenth government and by the President, in order to create a platform for a specialized discourse about this important concern of the government and the people. Supporters and opponents of this idea have expressed their opinions in the past weeks in public media and private gatherings. However, a while ago, with the introduction of the topic in a press conference, Fatemeh Mahajerani, the government spokesperson, brought this discussion to a new phase. She sparked a wave of new criticisms by proposing the transfer of the capital to the coasts of Makran; although she later clarified that her intention was not to make a definite decision and she only presented it as a suggested example, her words did not prevent the publication of criticisms, sometimes even harsh ones, on this matter.

To further investigate this plan and examine the subject, we arranged a conversation with Dr. Mohammad Taghi Rahnamayi, one of the pioneers and opinion leaders in studying the transfer of the capital. He was born in 1944 in Hashtpar Talaash and is a retired professor of geography at the University of Tehran. He was one of the pioneers and first teachers of tourism in Iran and played a major role in the development of scientific and modern geography in the country. Dr. Rahnamayi has expertise in areas such as nature-oriented environmental planning, urban planning based on sustainable development standards, and tourism planning based on modern scientific methods, and is considered a pioneer in these subjects in Iran. He received his PhD from the University of Marburg in Germany and is a member of many national and international geography and tourism societies, including the Iranian Tourism Scientific Society, the Iranian Geographical Society, the Tourism Experts Society, the Marburg University Geography Society, the Chair of the World Tourism

You can read the detailed conversation about the peace line with this urban geographer below.

Mr. Doctor, as you are aware, in the past few months, the issue of transferring the capital has been raised again and the President himself has addressed this issue. After him, the government spokesperson also talked about the selection of Makran as a replacement. First, regarding the main issue of transferring the capital, what is your opinion on it and also, please give a general overview of the experiences of this issue in the world so that we can move on to more specific questions..

The discussion of transferring the capital from Tehran in the years before the revolution was brought up once. However, as it was discussed among experts, it was concluded that there was not a sufficient and justifiable reason to transfer the capital from Tehran. This was before the revolution. Later, the topic was set aside. In the years after the revolution, during the time of the late Engineer Kazeroni – who was the Minister of Housing and Urban Development in Mr. Rafsanjani’s cabinet – he was given the task of conducting a feasibility study for the transfer of the capital. I would like to emphasize that it was a feasibility study for the transfer of the capital. At that time, I had collaborated with the Ministry of Housing and Urban Development, especially with the Center for Architectural and Urban Studies of Iran. Mr. Engineer Kazeroni raised four questions in the meetings that needed to be answered. The first question was, if the government decides to transfer the capital, where is the most

Of course, this has also happened in Indonesia.

See, the conditions in Iran are different from the conditions in Indonesia. The conditions in Iran are also different from the conditions in Pakistan, Brazil, Germany, and so on. Therefore, we must consider our own conditions and see what facilities and limitations they had and what facilities and limitations we have and have. We should not compare them at all. They can be considered as global experiences. In Iran, the capital has changed nearly 30 times so far. But the reason for these changes has been mainly either external threats (such as the Safavid dynasty, which moved from Ardabil to Tabriz, from Tabriz to Qazvin, and from Qazvin to Isfahan to protect the government against external threats) or because usually the dynasties in Iran before the reign of Reza Shah and the Pahlavi dynasty had tribal origins and each tried to settle in their own tribal area to be safe from rival threats. Therefore, the capital was moved. Thus, these changes have

You mentioned that you chose three sites during the periods when you were working on the subject, for the transfer of the capital. Where were these three sites?

A website was located between the mountains of Karkas and Zagros. It was approximately between Natanz, Mahallat, Golpayegan, and Khansar. I went there and saw it up close. It is a very suitable location and transferring water from two rivers to there was possible. In terms of the 19 criteria that we had written, it was suitable in every aspect. Another site was located between Abadeh and Shiraz, which received the second highest score, and the third site was located between Hamadan, Zanjan, and Takab, in the northwest of Iran. Of course, there were other sites that had problems with earthquakes, water, etc. and did not receive a score. It should be noted that all three sites were approved in meetings with the cabinet and the subcommittee, as well as meetings with military and law enforcement commanders. Experts were brought in and examined and found that there were no issues with these choices.

Is the file of these websites still available in the management organization?

I heard indirectly that the gentlemen who have recently brought up the issue of transferring in the organization have somehow rewritten our report. In the last meeting we had at the House of Human Sciences, I heard from one of the attendees that they changed our report by altering its structure and almost reached a point close to where we had reached, and used the same methods that we had used. The methods I used had not been done by anyone in Iran before and I haven’t even heard of anyone who could refer to these regulations.

When considering the transfer of the capital, they take into account the indicators; whether cultural and economic or local and indigenous. In your opinion, what is the most important indicator that should be considered in the discussion of transferring the capital?

See, these cannot be done except by them. Each of them has a significant burden in its place. For example, Iran is a country that has always been under attack from all sides. This means that if you study Iran’s military history, attacks have come from both the east and west, as well as the north and south. What this historical study reveals is that the capital of Iran – which is essentially the key to occupying this country – should not be located within a distance of less than 150 kilometers from the border. This is a very important indicator in terms of geopolitics, geostrategy, security, defense, etc., and military commanders have emphasized this point and said that it has been taken into consideration very well. Or for example, Iran is an earthquake-prone country. The map of earthquake zoning should be placed in front of itself and then the locations of these destructive and devastating earthquakes should be identified, and the so-called curve of places that are relatively resistant and stable against earthquakes

One of the places that the government announced with great haste was Makran. However, this transfer will definitely have an impact on the region’s structures. How reasonable and feasible do you consider the transfer to Makran to be?

In my opinion, these gentlemen who are currently sitting in the decision-making position, do not know Iran, are not familiar with Iranian history, and have no understanding of Iran’s geopolitical significance. Each one speaks from their own profession, one is an electronic engineer, one is a civil engineer, and one is a doctor. You see, every job requires specialized skills and expertise. These words are not based on any thought, idea, or academic background. The plan that these government officials have proposed is like poking a hole in a wide mouth. In my opinion, these gentlemen have no concept of the difficulty of relocating a capital city. I have softened my words because you are a publication that will print this, but in my speeches, I have been much more direct and forceful. Can you simply say that you will move the capital to the coast without considering the country’s geography and other factors? The capital is the identity and showcase of a country. It reflects all aspects of technical, architectural

Oh Isfahan!

There, too, is wrong. Isfahan itself has a thousand and one misfortunes. You are bringing this misfortune again and burdening it there. Isfahanis are now fleeing from the sinking land to Gilan and Mazandaran.

How effective do you think the role of people is in deciding to relocate the capital? In other words, if there is a plan to relocate the capital, should it be approved and finalized with the participation of the people or is it not necessary?

This has three parts. People and experts who are decision-makers, and governments who are decision-makers. It means we are the decision-makers and the gentlemen who sit up there and talk about these things are the decision-makers. An efficient and responsible government must take into account the opinions of the people and also the opinions of experts and specialists, and divide and consider all aspects together and finally announce its decision. The opinion of the people is very important, especially in this matter which is very, very vital. In fact, the issue of transferring the capital is not just a Tehran issue. It is not a local or regional issue. It is a national and global issue, but the gentlemen do not take this into account. They think it is a local or regional matter. It is like the term “moving from one place to another”; from this place to that place.

It seems that the issue of transferring to Makran is very serious in the government. Considering that this region has become an economic investment hub and is developing, does the government intend to move its economic capital there? Is it generally a good idea to separate business sectors in the capital and transfer them to different places?

We have a bad experience on Kish Island. I prepared a plan for Kish Island to become a free zone. But what we proposed was not what the decision makers implemented. Our proposal was for Kish to become an export base for Iran and a place for industrial, agricultural, and service activities beyond its shores. Because Kish has an area of 91 square kilometers, some of which is used for an air force base and airport. In fact, even in the previous plan before the revolution, they did not do what they are doing now. They actually created a base there for imports. Our reports did not mention any of this. Yes, we have a bitter experience. Now, if they want to do the same thing in the Makran coast, then you have to think about how dangerous the situation can be and it definitely requires a lot of careful consideration, which I do not see in the governments of yesterday and today.

Is it really correct to divide the capital into economic, political, and cultural capitals?

We call this process decentralization. For example, the political capital of Germany is Berlin, but its economic capital, in terms of, for example, airports, is Frankfurt. This means that every three minutes, a flight lands and takes off from Frankfurt airport. This city is prepared for these services. Now, imagine Frankfurt – it is located near the geographical center of Germany and all railway networks from all eastern, western, northern, and southern states end in Frankfurt. No matter where you want to go, to any city, you won’t have to stop at the Frankfurt terminal for more than half an hour. The trains are so well organized and designed that the passenger doesn’t feel lost. Tehran’s problem is exactly what you said. Tehran is the political capital, the economic capital, the banking capital, the cultural and academic capital, the sports capital, the military capital, and so on. Well, from any perspective, Tehran plays the role of a capital and center. So, if I

In fact, the economic, cultural, and political capital is divided in all of these.

In the final stage, when you gather and analyze the information and look at the current situation on a map, you say, for example, where should the metal industries go? Where should the chemical industries go? Where should the cellulose and ceramic industries go? We have 9 industrial groups and we cannot gather all of them in one place. They need raw materials. Their water needs vary. We also need to consider their transportation, communication, and vertical and horizontal connections with each other. For example, the food industries are currently located around Tehran, but their raw materials are not there. They bring tomatoes from elsewhere, citrus fruits from another place, milk from another place, and dairy products from another place, but they are packaged and processed there. This is where our problem lies. We did not come to establish each activity in its appropriate place.

More, where there is more rent, it is settled.

“Infrastructure is not available at all. With this issue of electricity imbalance and traffic problems, just last week you saw that two school buses collided and some of our young and talented students lost their lives. Why are we still riding in cars that were produced fifty years ago and their technology is outdated? You don’t have any cars in Iran that are assembled and taken to a European country, where their driving guidance department gives permission and numbers them, they say it’s not up to standard. Well, with these limited facilities and a limp leg and a broken back, do you want to participate in a 200-meter sprint or a marathon?”

So we must conclude that the discussion of transferring the capital is neither possible nor reasonable at this time. It also requires certain prerequisites, which are not currently in place. Is that correct?

Yes, under current circumstances, relocating the capital is not a solution for organizing Tehran. Organizing Tehran is not possible with just one action; it requires three to four simultaneous actions. One of them is decentralization. Another is transferring non-related activities from Tehran to other areas. For example, the Ministry of Science. We have about 500,000 to 510,000 students in Tehran. That means 25% of the country’s students study in universities in Tehran. Out of five industrial universities, four are located in Tehran. Why does Allameh Tabatabai University need to be in Tehran? If it is relocated, will it lose credibility from Tehran? Consider the universities of science and technology. Consider the units of the Open University. Consider the research unit. Why should it be located in Tehran? Why does Payame Noor University, with all its buildings and staff, need to be in Tehran? Well, these numbers and figures we are talking about do not mean anything

They don’t look down…

Expensive tables and rotating chairs, large conference tables and office furniture, blind the person.

If there is any other question left that I haven’t asked, please let me know.

We must go towards organizing Greater Tehran and the metropolis of Tehran. There are several solutions and mechanisms for this organization, including decentralization from Tehran. Another way is to break down the ministries.

What does it mean to break?

For example, consider the Ministry of Agriculture. How many buildings does this ministry have in Tehran? A lot. One of them was sold to the Judiciary; a 17-story building. When I was working on this project, 1200 people were working in that building alone. In the Institute of Pest and Plant Control of this ministry, each specialist’s office was as big as a director’s office. Now let’s assume the issue is understanding the geography of agriculture in Iran. The deputy for palm and date cultivation should be transferred to Bam and Kerman. The deputy for rice to Gilan and Mazandaran, and the deputy for kiwi, for example, to Talesh, which is the largest kiwi farming region in Iran. Grains should also be transferred to Azerbaijan. Industries should follow the same pattern.

Before the revolution, this issue had been considered. Why did they establish the Chooka factory in Talesh? They calculated and saw that if they took it to Khorramabad, there was no forest to feed the factory.

Unfortunately, it has become such that every province wants to build a refinery for itself.

This is exactly the same problem that every representative wanted to have a branch of the Azad University in their city. In some cities, there were buildings with the Azad University sign on top, but on the lower floor, there were repair shops, car washes, and tire shops, and from a middle door, they went up to the upper floor where the Azad Islamic University was located.

We are grateful for the opportunity that you have given to the Peace Line magazine.