The youth population plan, as a legal document with negative content or perhaps something similar to a government decree from a few years ago, was approved in parliament and announced by the president. Like many other laws in the Islamic Republic, this plan has been put on the agenda without any study and solely based on the ideology of the ruling government. However, the question is, what is the reaction of the majority of the people or society towards such plans? Do the people who are currently struggling with basic economic needs support the laws of the Islamic Republic? In this conversation with Saeed Ma’eedfar, a sociologist and former professor at the University of Tehran, we will examine the actions and reactions of the people towards the various pressures imposed by the government.

Totalitarian and authoritarian governments like the Islamic Republic desire to construct and organize society from the top down; is it fundamentally possible to build a society from the top down? Or can a predetermined structure be imposed on society?

The sociological approach says: society has its own life. Society is made up of different elements, one of which is the political system. The greatest means of survival for society is from within itself; meaning there are self-generating and self-stimulating mechanisms within society. Each society has a historical and cultural identity that shapes and gives it its identity and distinguishes it from other societies. Society is a unique and special entity that can undergo changes and accept transformations over time.

It is not possible to only give survival to a society from one aspect; for example, a political system without connection to the body, life, past, culture, and characteristics of that society cannot bring anything to it. Decisions may be made and those decisions may not have any impact. We cannot say that decisions made by the government have no effect, but it is questionable whether these effects can bring about fundamental changes in society.

For example, in a place like North and South Korea, which are very similar historically and culturally; the government has been able to create fundamental changes. In North Korea, there is a dominant and powerful military rule, while in South Korea, the government has strived to have democratic behaviors; the behaviors of the rulers have made these two countries very different, despite having a shared history and culture. A political system can sometimes change the structure and organization of a society; like these two countries.

In my opinion, these types of interventions in the political system are very influential in Southeast Asian countries and even China, but the structure of societies or people in the Middle East is different. We cannot see the same outcome that the totalitarian political system has had in Southeast Asian countries in the Middle East. China, from the Mao era to the Deng Xiaoping era and China today, or North Korea compared to South Korea, or other countries in that region, are all under the influence of their political systems; but it seems that this cannot be done with Middle Eastern countries. These countries have different potentials that exist in our country as well. The Islamic Republic has been trying for forty years to instill its values and norms, but today we see a lot of reactions towards our government’s actions.

For example, although the Islamic Republic tries to control the population, increase birth rates, and promote marriage by passing numerous laws and offering incentives, in reality, people do not comply with these measures. This means that neither do they receive the messages nor do fundamental changes occur. It is possible that by not providing population control facilities, the government may unintentionally cause unwanted pregnancies and result in more dangerous abortions, which also have significant health consequences. In regards to disadvantaged individuals who have no other options, it is possible that there may be an increase in births, but in reality, those who have the means and resources to provide a better quality of life for their children do not receive this message and move in the opposite direction.

Therefore, people in Iran do not support the policies of the Islamic Republic. They go their own way without listening to the government’s messages, and the major policies and budgets cannot change their behavior and attitudes. Sometimes, some people behave in opposition and contradiction to the government’s decisions; meaning they understand the sensitivities of the ruling authority and act against it.

A small number of people – about eight to ten percent of the society – who see themselves aligned with the system, show a positive reaction to these messages, but their number is insignificant. In addition, they themselves are also faced with difficulties and challenges in their daily lives, or perhaps their children do not listen to the messages of the government. Many of those who were once aligned with the government have passed their childbearing age and their children do not follow its policies. Therefore, even a portion of that small percentage who are aligned with the system are unable to implement its orders and cannot achieve the values and norms of the government. In my opinion, our political system is just a waste of time and its policies do not lead to any results.

What are the social consequences of passing repressive laws (such as the Youth Population Plan)? How much can the approval of these laws contribute to resolving social crises?

When a government does not have a cohesive relationship with its society and the government is on one side and the people are on the other (meaning they each play their own game), one of the social consequences is stubbornness and obstinacy. These two clash with each other and it is a disaster; both for the system and for the people. This issue creates a kind of deviant behavior; for example, if a person lives in normal conditions, they have a normal behavior towards covering up and their decision-making is rational. But if this person gets caught up in chaos with someone or a system, their behavior is no longer rational, logical, or based on their beliefs and identity; they take on an extreme or excessive form. This is the situation in our country; meaning that other social behaviors are not based on rationality and take on the form of obstinacy.

If an Iranian immigrates to a country where there is no top-down policy making, they will reach a balance in their political and religious beliefs, social behaviors, and attitudes towards society and people; they will become their “true self” and will no longer present a ridiculous version of themselves. Because this person is constantly being ridiculed by the system from within, they will break out of their normal state and start ridiculing the system. As a result, we have found a very unbalanced, crooked, and abnormal behavior within Iran.

In my opinion, our society today is facing a misbehavior and imbalance in the relationship between the government and the people. Extreme and excessive behaviors have taken shape in our lives, which can be dangerous for our society and its future. This “I” as an Iranian with a historical or religious identity, seems to be disregarding all its identity assets and making fun of them. This issue is very noticeable on social networks, where everything is being questioned and the foundations of our national and historical identity are being destroyed. This mockery created in the virtual space is not our identity. If we live in a place where this pressure from the government does not exist, we still feel the need for these identity foundations; meaning we have concerns, but today we have become misbehaved in society due to the conflicts between the political system and the people.

Our society is suffering from political, social, and cultural alienation, which creates thousands of other problems and can jeopardize the stability and sustainability of our community.

Beside these behaviors, it seems that a group of society, like women, are moving forward and trying to shape movements. Women have become more aware of their rights and are trying to create a transformation from within society to governance. On the other hand, the government is trying to control them more by passing new laws. Can we hope for these advancements and consider them influential? What is the reaction of half of society, who are women, to the passing of restrictive laws?

Over the years, groups have tried to play a role in society and compensate for some of the shortcomings. People’s institutions were also formed. Some also tried to serve the community, but in the end, the government took over all of them. The government has put all these institutions under so much pressure that they can no longer function. For example, an NGO that was working for child labor and street children and had gathered people solely for the purpose of helping without any specific direction, is put under pressure by the government and eventually shut down.

This political system is concerned about people being able to gather and engage in activities together, and wants to control and monitor them. This system does not allow people in society to come together and is afraid of any kind of gathering of people; therefore, it makes extensive efforts to disrupt any cooperation among a group of people to solve a social problem, and this is the specific nature of this government. Unfortunately, I do not see a bright future for these authoritarian tendencies.

It is true that women have made great efforts today, but due to the pressures imposed by the Islamic Republic, these communities are either shut down or become extreme and deviant. Unfortunately, society is truly helpless despite all these problems and no movement or group can help it. Our difficulties are becoming more complex and widespread every day. Despite the fact that many women have tried to act moderately and rationally, they still face oppression. Only a few can be active in this society by accepting the restrictions of the government. If a group wants to act independently, it will be under pressure from the government.

We see that active groups today are facing various pressures and problems. Women today have more courage and motivation in all areas compared to men and are more serious than men, but in practice, women and young people are much more underprivileged and under the control of authority. In a country where there is no imposition of opinions and pressures from society, it is not possible to have moderate and direct behavior. A government that controls the people leads society to extremism and excess.

A large number of individuals, such as retirees, teachers, or workers, are trying to have independent trade unions and pursue their demands in a civil manner. Given the conditions that you have depicted for the current society in Iran, can these individuals achieve anything? Can the current society be organized?

In present-day Iranian society, when individuals are faced with a life-threatening issue or their livelihood is at stake, they become involved in action. Whether it’s about issues such as teachers, the demands of the people of Isfahan or Khuzestan, or events like these, people offer their own lives when their livelihood is at stake. It is natural that in such situations, individuals become involved in extremism. On the other hand, in these circumstances, the government claims that the issues have become political and suppresses them. All of these movements, including the protests of workers, Khuzestanis, Isfahanis, etc. are suppressed by the government, and ultimately, another group of protesters is added to the mix. These groups realize during the protests and suppression that the system has no response other than suppression.

At times, we can label these populations as a movement or a class, where the desires and demands of these individuals occur in a normal state. None of these protests are normal. Anyone who joins the protests is risking their life and becoming poorer every day compared to the day before. All vital resources of individuals are disappearing. The behaviors of society become more social the more normal the conditions are, and the more abnormal the situation becomes, the more anti-social the behaviors will be.

If we compare the behavior of our current guilds with the behavior of other guilds and unions that live in balanced conditions, we see that their behavior is based on rationality, has synergy, and in a way strengthens their social behavior and becomes more civilized and progressive. However, in our society, the rule of individuals is at stake and causes social behaviors to fall into materialistic behaviors.

According to Abraham Maslow, the first needs of humans are material needs, which are security and livelihood needs. However, what makes humans unique is that they have higher needs beyond material needs. Humans have a need for higher social levels such as interaction, communication, and self-actualization. Currently, all the reactions that occur in our society are at the same material and security levels. At this level, behaviors become anti-social and do not lead to growth and progress.

These protests push us towards more economic reactions; for example, in the November 98 protests, the government’s wrong decision and suppression caused a significant setback in the economic, political, and social system; or for instance, when it comes to teachers, the parliament is asked to address the issue, but because their actions are not based on logic and science, their decision only provokes the protests of another group; therefore, individuals are forced to make temporary and reactionary decisions instead of rational and negotiation-based ones, which ultimately leads to their downfall.

In my opinion, the country has fallen into a vicious cycle. The people have regressed in terms of social interactions, growth, and rationality, and the system has also brought them down to the level of basic security and livelihood needs. This situation is faced with more knots and decline every day, and we are a country on the verge of decline, instead of a country that is growing and developing. Every day, we are experiencing more decline in economic, social, political, and cultural areas.

Is it possible to envision a future for present-day Iran?

No! In my opinion, what can be imagined for the future of this society is destruction; because the rule of all the foundations that can save a society has been destroyed. Those who are capable will leave and those who remain will be caught up in problems and dilemmas, and future disasters will also come upon this society. We have entered a cycle of decline. This decline will continue until a great calamity occurs and we all feel that our previous potentials have been destroyed.

We once came forward with an ancient background, we fell to the ground. We once came forward with a religious background, we fell to the ground. Now we must reach a point where we all become disgusted with everything we have. The current political system is a part of our past ideals; ideals such as wanting to establish an Islamic civilization, which has resulted in this. This must be destroyed and in fact, the mud and damages of those past ideals must be revealed and alongside it, a great disaster must occur so that we can all leave these behind and like an ordinary citizen in normal circumstances, we can find an identity that is not in conflict with the modern world; but in reality, this cannot be achieved in this country in this current situation.

Thank you for the opportunity you have provided us with to participate in the peace talks.

“سلام دوست عزیز، امیدوارم حالت خوب باشه”

“Hello dear friend, I hope you are doing well.”

Explanation: This interview was conducted a few months ago and is now being published on the occasion of the announcement of the Youth Plan by the government.