He emphasizes that “if appropriate laws are to be created for the workforce, the workforce must have political power.” He considers Iran’s economy to be oil-based and sees the numbers and figures announced for reducing Iran’s dependence on oil as deception and manipulation. He argues why he believes this economy is still oil-based and, of course, rent-seeking.

Our discussion in this issue begins with Dr. Ahmad Alavi, an economist and university professor from Sweden, defining the concepts of investment and forced labor. After various discussions, we return to the topic of utilizing the workforce. He does not consider Iran’s economy to be neoliberal and says that despite some similarities, “Iran’s economy is a devastated and backward economy of a specific type of capitalism that is accompanied by the rule of clerics, military, rulers, and their political partners.”

In this conversation, Dr. Alavi repeatedly states that “the ruling power in Iran does not represent the workforce” and firmly believes that “until we are unable to create

Is there a clear and specific definition for the concepts of investment and forced labor? How do you explain these concepts?

In this field, there are acceptable definitions. However, at any given time, based on the customs and political and economic relations of society, specific interpretations of these concepts are created. For example, the International Labor Organization talks about good work or a good job and refers to eight hours of work to compensate for a conventional life. This is, of course, a general concept and can be adapted in various ways in different societies. But overall, it gives us a line and a standard that says good work is work that can provide for a working person’s life in eight hours. By life, we mean a conventional limit that includes food, housing, education, and other matters, and at the same time can provide retirement and social security for the individual. If we judge based on this, it is natural that working conditions that do not match what is considered a good and decent job are perceived as below the standards. Of course, in more advanced societies, there are even more advantages that make working more

From the perspective of many experts, the widespread protests and labor strikes in recent years, the expansion of marginalization, the increase in unpaid wages of workers and a portion of government employees, etc. are seen as signs of a deepening class divide and failure to achieve minimum welfare standards. This has resulted in a deviation from global labor standards and a prominent increase in labor exploitation. What is your opinion on this matter?

According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Good Work Charter, the conditions for workers in Iran do not comply with minimum international standards. For example, one of the minimum standards for work in international laws is that workers must have the right to strike and protest. Workers should be able to negotiate their wages not only individually, but also collectively and independently from their employers through independent and free trade unions. This includes issues such as workplace safety and retirement, which are mentioned in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Good Work Charter. Of course, each society has its own definitions based on these standards. However, what has happened in the past forty years has been contrary to this path.

In Iran, we do not have independent labor unions. Therefore, we do not have the ability to use these unions to address issues such as workplace safety, wages, retirement, and pension funds. For example, one of the main contributors to pension funds is the workers themselves, while these funds are under government supervision

Based on its slogans and claims, the government has always emphasized that it belongs to the weak and empty-handed class. Is this really reflected in the policies adopted?

The workforce in Iran was able to take advantage of the post-Pahlavi era for a short period of time and gain privileges. However, due to the lack of labor unions and representation in the political sphere, they gradually lost these advantages. With hostage-taking, war, and subsequent government policies of development and reform, certain groups and minorities gained control and power, while representatives of the entire Iranian society, including the workforce, were not specifically represented. It is natural that when the workforce does not have political representation and the government is not a symbol of the people’s will, the resources gradually shift towards a specific group and minority, who then make decisions about their distribution. Especially considering that the economy of Iran is a single-oil-based economy. Therefore, the dominant force in Iran does not represent the workforce. The power of decision-making is monopolized by a small group, led by the leader of the regime, and filtered to prevent representation of various social classes in legislative and executive bodies. Therefore,

On December 16 of this year, a group of students claimed that the economic policies of the government are describable in the category of “neoliberalism”. What is your opinion?

The economy of Iran is a semi-capitalist economy that is very isolated from the world. This economy is not an advanced economy. The policies referred to as neoliberal policies are related to limiting labor rights, reducing government services, or reducing the role of the government in providing services. This is understandable in developed countries, although there is controversy even within this title. Since the 1950s, there has been a debate about how to use this title and what its implications are.

The economy of Iran is not an advanced economy where, for example, the role of the government or government advantages are reduced, as in France. In Iran, this is not even a topic. What has existed in Iran is a rent that has been created for oil and then distributed by the ruling class. The government also limits and reduces advantages. There are significant differences between the neoliberal policies implemented in the West and what is happening in Iran. It could be said that the economy of Iran is a ruined and backward economy of

You have repeatedly emphasized the oil-based economy of Iran. However, statistics and government sources indicate that in, for example, 97, about 40% and in 98, about 67% of the country’s economy is dependent on oil. This means that only about half of this economy is oil-based. Do you still believe that Iran’s economy is oil-based and if so, why?

Yes, that’s right. Firstly, the budget does not reflect the overall economy of Iran. Secondly, when it is said that the share of oil in Iran’s budget has decreased, it is actually a form of accounting deception. Let’s assume we remove oil from the equation, both domestically and internationally. This means that even oil revenues will be removed in rials. Refineries, as a place for employment, will be removed. Refineries are where industrial relationships are created. If we remove this oil from the real sector, nothing will remain of Iran’s economy. Additionally, a major portion of what is considered tax revenue is actually oil revenue. For example, Tehran refinery pays taxes. This is oil revenue. Of course, it is not foreign oil revenue, but it is still oil revenue. Tehran or Bandar Abbas refineries generate profits. Their employees receive salaries and pay taxes based on that. These are all oil revenues. We should not fall for the usual accounting deceptions

The spread of laws set for workers in the glue factory in the media has clearly revealed exploitation and profiteering in Iranian workshops and factories. In Iran, what mechanisms limit employers and owners of capital from exploiting workers? How is the situation in practice, regardless of the laws set?

Until an independent union is established, even if there are laws in place, they are practically ineffective. The real governing power that controls power relations is decisive. What happens in the legal realm is not important at all. Unless, of course, the so-called workforce of Iran can achieve its will by having unions. In that case, not only will appropriate laws be enacted, but also special attention and delicacy will be applied in their implementation. In many underdeveloped or developing countries, there are laws in place. But why does the workforce not receive their rights? Because the workforce does not have its own representatives and the power to oversee laws. The same is true in Iran. It can be said that in some cases, labor laws in Iran are not appropriate. They are also not up to date in many cases. But when the workforce does not have real power, these laws are not enforced.

Does this mean that improving the situation of workers and implementing these laws is dependent on their presence and political power?

If appropriate laws are to be created for the workforce, the workforce must have political power. They must have their own unions. They must have their own civil society. Otherwise, it cannot be expected that firstly the laws will be appropriate and secondly that they will be enforced.

What economic policies are necessary to improve the productivity of workers and overall welfare and social security of the workforce?

Efficiency and investment are relative concepts and are defined based on the standards of each society and the agreement of the workforce. Therefore, the amount, degree, and manner of investment differ between a backward society and an advanced society. In a society with abundant and accessible resources, the concept of investment differs from a society that lacks resources. Therefore, it must be clarified that this issue is relative and subject to customary definition. However, this does not mean that acceptable standards cannot be defined. Of course, this can be done. In order to define the standards of efficiency or lack thereof, it is necessary above all for the workforce to have the ability and facilities to organize themselves in a structured and organized manner, just as other social groups such as investors have the ability to do so. This means that there must be unions and institutions that can spread the discourse of criticism of efficiency in society. Without them, no action will be taken against efficiency. This also requires a minimum level of democracy and people’s rule

Is there generally a meaningful relationship between the type of government and the utilization of labor?

Economic policies of the government are the result of a legal and regulatory process. This process is determined in the parliament and implemented by the executive branch. However, when the legislative branch is lacking representation from the workforce, it is likely that laws will be passed that do not benefit the workers. Even if the laws passed are not harmful to the workforce, they may not be enforced by employers or government officials. Who should enforce these laws? This is where the role of unions and real power becomes apparent. Without real power in the form of discourse, platforms, parties, unions, and independent labor organizations, suitable laws will not be enacted and even if they are, they may not be effectively implemented. This is because every law is subject to interpretation and can be interpreted differently by employers and workers. The question then becomes, whose interpretation is valid? If these two forces, employers and workers, are not in agreement, it is natural that the interpretation of laws will not be in favor of the workers and

What type of structure does your research pertain to? And what relationships exist within this structure in this field?

We are talking within the framework of current conventional conditions. We do not speak in a world where labor is dominant over everything. We speak within the framework of existing governments. For example, in comparison between Sweden and France, in Sweden, with more influence of labor in both civil society and media, despite existing setbacks, there is still the power of unions, and therefore there will be less exploitation and difference in resource distribution. In this country, inequality and class differences are less prevalent in areas such as education, insurance, and healthcare compared to countries where labor does not have representation in parliament. This can be clearly seen. If we look at it comparatively on an international level, countries with less inequality are those where labor is more organized and has the ability to express itself in social and economic policies. On the other hand, in countries like Iran and some Latin American and African countries, where labor is not organized, we see that there is also no power to express or organize itself. It does not have

Finally, if there is any point that you need to be addressed, please let me know.

For political, economic, and social development, the presence of a strong civil society is necessary. We can divide society into three parts based on social economic theories. One is the private sector, whose job is to produce wealth and profit. The second is the government or public sector, whose job is public distribution and power. The third part is civil society. The first two parts are susceptible to corruption and often forget their responsibilities. Without a strong civil society, it is not possible to criticize and prevent deviation, misuse, and inefficiency in the other two parts. If we want to reduce exploitation and misuse in all its forms, we need a strong civil society that can monitor the other two parts. Because civil society is not concerned with accumulating wealth, its job is to criticize the current situation and uncover the imbalances and problems in society.

Thank you for the time you have dedicated to the peace process.