Dr. Abbas Milani (Abbas Malekzadeh Milani), born in 1328, is a theorist, historian, and writer. Abbas Milani, who resides in California, is the director of Iranian Studies Program at Stanford University and one of the leaders of the Iran Democracy Project at the Hoover Institution.

Some of his books include “The Mystery of Hoveyda”, “Renewal and Anti-Renewal in Iran”, and “The Mystery of the Shah”, which have recently been translated and published in Persian.

When I contacted him for an interview about the peace talks, he was in the process of packing his bags for a trip to Europe. However, he kindly made time for me and answered my questions. Mr. Milani believes that any type of sanctions that harm the people should be opposed, but at the same time emphasizes that the incompetence and ignorance of the officials of the Islamic Republic of Iran gives the West the opportunity to impose such pressures on the people. He is a proponent of targeted sanctions against certain officials and managers in the Iranian government and believes that the scope of such sanctions should expand.

This contemporary theorist also talks about modernity and how with the triumph of modernity, which is essentially the victory of democracy and human rights in a country, a society is stripped of its skin. He admits that “the future of Iran is not determined by America and must not be determined by tyrants in power.”

Mr. Milan, Iran has been under heavy international sanctions for years, especially from the United States government. These sanctions have targeted Iran’s economy and have had a clear negative impact on the daily lives of Iranian people. With this brief introduction, please tell us whether these sanctions and the slowing down of economic development in Iran have a negative impact on the development of civil society in Iran.

Definitely, when the economic growth of society slows down, all aspects of society, including civil society, also slow down; but the main responsibility for the slow economic and civil growth of Iran, in my opinion, lies on the shoulders of the incompetence, corruption, and mismanagement of the regime. If they had acted according to their own laws of the Islamic Republic in these 8 years of Ahmadinejad’s rule, and spent the $700-800 billion in oil revenues properly, it would have put less pressure on both the economy and the growth of civil society in Iran… In short, it definitely has an impact, but the main responsibility, in my opinion, lies on the corruption, incompetence, and immorality of the unqualified and unethical managers who have been put in charge and, as they say themselves, it is not clear what disaster has befallen the $700-800 billion from the pockets of the Iranian people, which is 60% of the total capital

Okay, please explain, what is the relationship between economic development and improving the situation of civil society or promoting human rights in a country?

All the statistics I have seen, all the studies conducted in social sciences, sociology, and democratic theory have shown that the more educated a society is, the more active women are, and the more prominent their presence is in the social sphere, the higher the literacy rate and number of university graduates will be. The more middle-class individuals there are, the more desire, willingness, and ability for democracy will increase in that society. And if there are more economic resources in that society, all of these factors will be more attainable and better. That is why, on one hand, oil, as many have said, can be a curse for democracy, as it can turn governments from servants of the people into authoritarian rulers. But at the same time, it can also be an oil for democracy, if it is used to accelerate economic growth, literacy, and the inclusion of women in the workforce and in the social and educational spheres. If the government is competent and not anti-women or corrupt,

As we know, the government of Iran is not a government that has a defendable record in terms of respecting human rights and civil liberties. In your opinion, what choices do human rights defenders and civil society activists have in front of them that can improve the situation of Iranian citizens who are currently facing a more difficult economic situation due to sanctions and have not helped support or strengthen an authoritarian government in Iran?

I think that the choice is relatively simple. People should oppose any type of sanction that affects their daily lives, such as medicine and food. However, at the same time, I must always remind you that this incompetence, deceit, and lies are the regime’s fault. This gives the opportunity to America and other countries to put such pressures on the people, and this incompetence and strange choices of the regime make the pressures of these sanctions even more apparent to the people. In the past two or three months, as a result of the intensification of these sanctions, the pressures on the people have increased. The regime has given billions of dollars to Syria, as it claims, and openly and explicitly, and now it remains to be seen how much money it has given to Hezbollah and how much it helps them send thousands of forces to Syria and… This is what makes the situation worse.

In my opinion, human rights defenders should defend the right of people to live in a free and prosperous society. They should also hold responsibility, to the extent of their rights, for those who have caused this disaster and made Iran suffer from such a problem. If they do not consider these two aspects and do not hold the responsible officials accountable, and at the same time do not defend the people’s right to a comfortable life where their basic human rights are respected, they will either fall into extremism or negligence.

Many believe that forcing the Iranian government to adhere to human rights indirectly can also lead to resolving the nuclear dispute. In recent days, we have seen proposals addressed to the US Congress that, taking lessons from the Helsinki Commission’s experience during the Cold War and the Reagan administration, introduced human rights issues as a tool against the Soviet Union, which they claimed would strengthen the opposition against the Soviet Union. Now, it is necessary for the US Congress to link the issue of human rights to the Iranian nuclear issue and future sanctions, and in this way put pressure on the Iranian government to improve the human rights situation and accept international standards.

To what extent do you agree with the perspective that improving the human rights situation in Iran helps resolve nuclear disputes?

Unfortunately, I have to say that this opinion is not a new one. Some people say that it is a new opinion, but my colleague Michael McFaul, who is currently the US ambassador to Russia, and I, mentioned exactly (more or less) the same things you said in an article we published ten years ago in a monograph in a magazine. We said that the US should use a policy similar to Reagan’s policy towards the Soviet Union and that not negotiating with Iran is not the right policy. We should negotiate with Iran, but only negotiating about the nuclear program is falling into the trap of this regime. The West should accept and emphasize that while it does not have the right to interfere in Iran’s internal affairs and determine the next regime in Iran, the only issue with Iran is the nuclear issue; because firstly, emphasizing only one policy on the nuclear issue is wrong and secondly, it is an illusion. We should not create the illusion that if there is a compromise on

Do you think that introducing human rights issues into the topic of confrontation or negotiation between America and Iran is fundamentally feasible?

It is definitely possible. In my opinion, especially in the current situation where the ruling body, the Supreme Leader, and the Revolutionary Guards have realized that the policy of oppression and heat and the 8-year-long turmoil is not working, and understanding the necessity of retreat, they allowed for an election to take place. Although there were many flaws and the main candidates were not able to campaign, they allowed someone like Mr. Rouhani, who has more experience compared to others and seems to understand that the society of Iran will not be solved until issues of human rights, people’s freedoms, and gender equality are addressed, to become president. Now, every day they throw stones. Every day, Kayhan newspaper publishes an ugly article against human rights and humanity… They show the complexity of the situation…

In general, do you think the Iranian government has a desire to improve the human rights situation in this country?

See, the future of Iran is not determined by the Iranian regime. It is a delusion of the regime to think that they determine the future of Iran. You, the supporters of human rights, women, students, and activists fighting for their rights in factories, determine the future of Iran. The future of Iran is determined by those who publish books without the permission of the regime, those who fight against censorship in the fields of language, music, and theater, and the activists in the vast field of civil and human rights, and this cultural revolution that has taken place in Iran.

Mr. Larijani, who is he afraid of when he says that modernity has taken root everywhere? From Larijani to Masbah Yazdi, they all say that in the cultural arena, we have surrendered and, in their own words, have been taken over by modernity. When they say modernity has taken over, it means democracy, human rights, and women’s rights have been taken over, and in my opinion, they have been taken over. They themselves know and understand that their thoughts, rulings, and behavior have no buyers in society. Society has shed its skin. Society has changed. The regime cannot stop this gradual historical transformation that has been going on for 100 years and for which the people have been fighting for 35 years. Of course, it can delay it in the short term. With fire and sword and by using the Mortazavis, it can be delayed for a few months or even a few years. But their historical experience shows

For this reason, the future destiny of Iran is not determined by America, nor can it be determined by tyrants in power… I repeat, it is you, the defenders of human rights, the defenders of women’s rights, and the Iranian people who have organized this great revolution in the most competent and intelligent way, who will determine the destiny of Iran; not the desire of America, nor the desire of the oppressors.

Mr. Milan, please tell us to what extent do you consider the sanctions imposed on some officials and managers in the Iranian government, especially by the European Union, as an effective measure for the violation of human rights in recent years?

I think even personal sanctions against regime officials, perpetrators of massacres, and those responsible for arbitrary detentions should be expanded. Their assets should be seized through the courts so they understand that in the 21st century, simply being in a country does not give them the right to do whatever they want. Smart sanctions mean exactly this, putting pressure on the hot-headed and the oppressors, but actually giving strength to the people. If the people knew that every interrogator, every head interrogator, every person who has imprisoned the innocent, beaten and tortured them, and given orders to shoot, cannot leave the country or transfer their assets, they would gain even more strength. They would also understand their own accountability more and receive the message that the era of brute force and fear is over, and the era of human rights, democracy, equality of religions, genders, and minorities has arrived.

That is why I have always been a defender of the idea that those who violate human rights should be identified by name, carefully and patiently, and that their assets should be seized through legal means and their actions should be internationally recognized as crimes against human rights. Those who are likely to be involved in more serious crimes, such as mass killings in prisons, should be prohibited.

And as a final question, do officials in Iran actually give any importance to these sanctions?

They definitely care; if they didn’t care, they wouldn’t protest so much and try to fix it.

Thank you for providing this opportunity to the peace line.