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Ali Kalai

Isa Saharkhiz, is a journalist with a history in the country and one of the founders of the Association for the Defense of Press Freedom in Iran. He has been the head of domestic media at the Ministry of Guidance during the Reformist government and has been the editor-in-chief of the suspended newspaper “Eghtesad” and the suspended monthly magazine “Aftab”. In the past years, he has tasted the bitterness of imprisonment multiple times and has experienced imprisonment in various prisons from Evin to Rajaei Shahr.

We sat down with the well-known activist and journalist to discuss the nationwide protests of December 2017 and examine the different aspects of this event from his perspective. However, despite the widespread nature of these protests, he does not see them as having much depth and attributes this lack of depth and dynamism to their lack of continuity. He believes that Iranian society is ready to explode and says that the root of this is the lack of trust within the society. Mr. Saharkhiz says, “In our society, everyone is aware of the current situation and conditions, but because they are not very active and do not have the readiness for such action – and in any case, different segments of the population have their own interests – they are shocked.”

You can read the description of the peace talks with Mr. Eisa Saharkhiz regarding the examination of the nationwide protests of January 2018 below.

In the past month, we witnessed the most widespread protests in the four decades of the life of the Islamic Republic. What do you think caused these protests to quickly spread and reach cities and remote areas of the country?

Let me first mention a few points to you. The first point is that although these protests were widespread, they did not have a great depth in my opinion. By depth, I don’t mean that there was no dissatisfaction, but rather that the number of participants was not enough for a social movement and as a result, it couldn’t gain widespread support and eventually died down. However, this silence does not mean that this movement will not rise again. This movement did not have the necessary breadth and depth, and as a result, it could not create the necessary movement in major cities, especially in Tehran. Naturally, if this necessary breadth existed and major cities were also part of it, the discussion of depth would have been more serious.

The second point is that, as a default, institutions of governance played a role in the formation and launch of this movement, especially in the province of Khorasan Razavi and in the cities of Mashhad and Neyshabur. These actions were taken with a specific goal in mind, which I have previously mentioned was mainly to weaken the government or even remove it from power and bring in a new government through predetermined elections or even unusual circumstances. Without these defaults, we will naturally face difficulties in analyzing these issues.

But the reality is that in the four decades since the revolution, the train of the revolution has always had the support of more than 90% of society (whether right or wrong, and mostly in my opinion, right), but quickly and perhaps from the very first day of the revolution and after victory, this train has always been like a regular train that loses passengers step by step and station by station. Unfortunately, this train was not a train that would pick up new passengers at these stations. As a result, these passengers were constantly being discharged, to the point that in the stations where we are currently located, a larger number of them were expelled and this expulsion took place at a very high level. In some cases, it might be better to say that it was an expulsion and not an exit. This means that those who are in charge of the train, even forced some of those who did not intend to leave, to get off at different stations. In such a way that it can

This is about a generation that was on board this train during the revolution. But as I mentioned, this train was unable to take on new passengers and as a result, the generation that is now passing their fourth decade (if we also count those who were under 10 years old during the revolution, it would be their fifth decade) almost did not get on this train. They were either spectators or sometimes they were people who, out of dissatisfaction, like in the old days in the south of the city, would throw stones at the windows of this train out of anger and frustration, showing their dissatisfaction and anger in this way.

My analysis is that although there should be dissatisfaction among the deprived classes of society, and perhaps even among the uneducated, this dissatisfaction is mainly caused by those who have been educated and have gone to university. Many of them were considered outcasts of this society; people who cannot get on the train of revolution or have been kicked off. Educated individuals who have no job. People who see corruption, injustice, inequality, and rent-seeking. While they themselves are deprived of many benefits, they see others who have opened their mouths and raised their heads to the sky to take advantage of the “divine blessing” of oil money. They are not only deprived, but in various ways, money is taken from their pockets and spent on others. These others may be within society or even outside of it, living in other countries and not even part of this nation, yet they still benefit from this money.

These dissatisfactions, which include a wide range of factors, not only diminish the supporters of the revolution and the government, but may even act like snow in winter that falls from the mountain peak and turns into an avalanche; day by day it becomes more widespread and creates serious problems in the mountain range.

In the first section of your conversation, you mentioned that this social movement was not a dynamic movement. What do you mean by not being dynamic?

My intention of not being dynamic was to not have continuity. Compare this movement with the situation that happened in the two previous events (revolution and reform movement). You can see that in the revolution, at first every forty days a city would protest, and as we move forward and get closer to the revolution, this time interval turns into a week and then a day. In a way that during the period of the Shah’s departure from Iran until the revolution (from December 26th to February 22nd), we are involved in these general and nationwide protests every day.

Another example is the reform movement. In 2009, before the announcement of election results and on the first night before the ballot boxes were closed, a number of people were arrested. Almost all central figures of parties that were part of the reform movement or part of the opposition were arrested and quickly transferred to prison. Their secretaries general, central councils, many journalists, and a large number of civil activists were arrested. However, the streets were not empty. But since the government did not want to play a role in this movement, it quickly established military rule in other cities and identified supporting movements. At that time, this extent was not discussed and these movements were not seen in small towns. But in recent protests, we saw an increase in the number of participants, but it did not have the necessary depth and continuity.

If we compare these protests to a lake, this lake is very shallow, even in some places it reaches only a few centimeters. The number of participants was very limited. Of course, many videos of various gatherings were broadcast on social media, but now with the abundance of new media, anyone can even take videos of a limited group and claim that there were protests. The reality is that this movement could not attract a large crowd. Some activists participated in this incident, but nevertheless, it did not have the popular momentum necessary for expansion and as a result, it easily died down. This silence does not mean that there is no dissatisfaction. There is dissatisfaction and its depth is also significant, but there were no individuals who were willing to take risks and accept that after a while of just cheering, they now have to get involved and become an activist.

Do you think these protests can be considered over, or should we just say that the Iranian government has managed to contain them?

I am presenting another perspective. The government was not successful in controlling it, rather it was like a candle that had been lit but its wick was not deep enough and the thread was too short to reach the end of the candle. People were expecting a great transformation to take place, but it did not happen and it caused disappointment for some. In some places, the government also intervened and intensified this disappointment. Therefore, I do not consider this a success for the government and in response to your question, I must say that I do not think this issue has subsided and ended. In the depths of this sea, there are turbulent waves that are in motion and if the demands and requests of the people are not addressed, or if they are not in a way that satisfies the public, this sea will become stormy again, its turbulence will increase and its waves will become bigger, and it will cause heavier blows.

In your opinion, what type of demands led to the nationwide protests in December?

These protests are not the protests of the agricultural class in which villagers play a significant role. They are not even labor protests. Although we have many labor protests in the country and factories, these two are not closely related. In these protests, some are dissatisfied with their way of life, some with discrimination, some with corruption, and some with not having a role in the government.

The people present on the streets were mostly young and from my perspective, they belonged to a lower to middle class and perhaps occasionally to the upper class. They were educated individuals who were unemployed and looking for work. They wanted to be seen. This visibility had both economic and political/social implications. These young people wanted to express something that has been taken from them in these four decades and why they have been excluded in this government and democracy where everyone is supposed to participate. It can be said that this marginalized group played a more important role in these gatherings.

Recently, the ISPA polling institute conducted a survey regarding the nationwide protests in December, estimating that nearly 75% of the population is dissatisfied. These results indicate that the fractures in Iranian society have not been mended. This issue was the subject of a meeting at the Center for Strategic Studies of the Presidency, with the President’s advisor expressing concern about it. In your opinion, how will the social, political, and economic fractures in Iran erupt again?

You saw in what was called the Arab Spring, that the smallest spark could lead to a major event. Perhaps Iran, due to its two revolutions and several social movements, has become immune in a way. Even when someone commits self-immolation, it is not of great importance to the people. People, like those who work in hospitals, have seen such heartbreaking issues that it has become normal for them; they do not react quickly and think that this is also a part of life. However, in Iran, despite people being immune to these issues, any incident can still cause problems. For example, look at the recent clashes with the Dervishes; the incident started with the arrest of one person. It is possible that someone shoots a Basiji and an incident occurs. Or a Basiji intervenes and shoots someone, starting the incident.

We live in a society that is filled with explosive and flammable materials, and at any moment a spark could ignite. These materials are scattered like islands, not connected to each other. A place may explode, but its sound does not reach other places. A place may catch fire, but its flames do not spread to other places. However, the points where these materials are planted or created, like the fossil fuels in society, are increasing every day and their connection to each other is growing stronger.

If a reform movement – not in the usual and tangible sense, but a fundamental transformation – does not take place in the fabric and structure of governance in a way that people can feel it, these explosive materials and their points of connection will increase and can create a disaster.

Many analysts and media outlets were shocked by the emergence of these protests and have described them as sudden and unexpected. However, others have attributed them to various factors such as poverty, unemployment, inflation, and existing corruption that have been widely covered by the media. What is your opinion on this matter?

Despite being predictable, they did not think it would happen so soon and at this time. Like an earthquake story. For years, they have been saying that a major earthquake will happen in Tehran, but after the earthquake in Karaj, everyone was shocked. Iranian society is also like this, because everyone knows that corruption, discrimination, and inequality exist.

In a society where all the deputy presidents and brothers of the head of the judiciary are involved in corruption, or there are corrupt individuals in the leader’s office (although I do not have any opinion on the accuracy of these accusations and I do not intend to enter this issue), what will the people do after news of such corruption is published? These news stay in their minds. In Iran, from the top to the bottom, everyone is corrupt. These corruptions do not necessarily have to be financial. In a society like the Islamic Republic, sometimes sexual corruption is perceived; someone had a relationship with someone else or a person went to a women’s pool. The question that arises is why in such a society, for example in the case of sheep theft in Khorasan, the hands of the thieves are cut off but those who commit bigger thefts get to live their lives?

All of these issues lead to the emergence of glands and blisters in society, waiting for a trigger to burst out. This expectation exists, but when it happens, everyone is shocked and says that they did not expect it to happen today and it should have happened tomorrow. In our society, everyone is aware of the current situation and conditions, but because they are not very active and are not prepared for this action (after all, people also have their own interests), they are shocked.

The people of Iran have made a revolution. Although they want change and transformation, they do not want another revolution to happen. These people have seen their own revolution and the revolutions of other countries, as well as the entry of foreign forces such as Iraq, Afghanistan, the situation in Syria, the situation in Libya, and so on, and they are afraid of revolution. While they are dissatisfied with the current conditions, they are also afraid of change. As the saying goes, “Every year is worse than the last,” the people are also afraid that the conditions will worsen and they say that if a new person comes, they will be worse than the previous one. Widespread despair, hopelessness, and distrust have emerged among them.

They used to say jokingly or seriously, “I always vote for the same representatives; because I know that the previous representative has been in office for 3 or 4 terms and has filled his pockets as much as he wanted, and now if he wants to eat money, it’s not a lot. But if a new person comes, he wants to eat as much money in one day and one term as the previous person. So I don’t vote for a new person in this society.” The meaning is that the conditions have become such that people no longer trust or believe in anyone.

Part of this mistrust is also related to society. People see that in the market, everyone is trying to deceive each other. Or in companies, all employees want to pass their responsibilities onto someone else. These things cause people to mistrust themselves. If you want to analyze, see that there used to be many companies in Iran with names like “So-and-So and Sons” and “So-and-So and Brothers”. But now you don’t see such names anymore because there is not much trust between brothers, fathers and sons, or sons and fathers. This mistrust becomes even greater when dealing with strangers.

In addition to distrust, hopelessness has arisen among the people. When they had a very high presence, they elected the president. But a few months later, they protested against it. This shows that people do not have the patience, tolerance, and trust to take action. As a result, when they want to take action, they wait for the implementation of unfinished democratic processes and take matters into their own hands. Perhaps it is necessary for the people of society to think a little before taking action. If there were protests in the streets one day, they should not participate because they are dissatisfied with the situation. Because if they participate in every gathering and nothing comes of it, they become hopeless and become immune to these issues. This makes them unprepared to participate in protests when they should and they become spectators.

In fact, my argument revolves around the fact that before taking action, one must think and consult. In this recent movement, one of the reasons that caused its decline was the lack of approval from the authoritative forces, resulting in many of their followers not joining the movement. Even those who did join, after conducting interviews and hearing from those who believed in them, said that the conditions were suspicious (suspicious in terms of the leaders of this movement) and did not take any action to stop it.

Is this not an elitist view? That we tell people to simply take actions that the elite class agrees with?

The authorities’ forces cannot be ignored. However, these authorities’ forces should not necessarily be academic or political. For example, when the wrestling match with an Israeli athlete was canceled, the athletes said, “Why did we have such matches before, but now we are not allowed to compete with athletes from this country?” Or, for instance, you see Leila Hatami reacting to current issues in the country. In these four decades, when did our athletes and even artists talk about such issues?

This elitism that I am talking about does not mean that everything the elites do is right. Even the elites must look at where the masses want to go, otherwise our currents will become chaotic and dark. It’s like the story of the little engine and the big engine; everyone thinks that if the little engine succeeds, the big engine will also work, when in reality the little engine is not even connected to the big engine.

The elite and the masses must have an organic connection in order to function properly. One who can act cannot necessarily think well enough to find the best solution. This organic connection does not mean that, for example, if reformists and those currently in government and parliament support a certain movement, that movement is necessarily correct. My point is that if someone wants to do something, they must think and consider behind the scenes. Regarding the behind-the-scenes movements – which I emphasize – consider Savak for example; they created parties, even armed movements, to gather forces and then suppress them. These issues may still exist. Especially when they know that society is ready to explode, they will prick a needle to reduce some of the pressure and be able to move forward with their work.

The problems in Iranian society have become chronic and complicated and require more thinking and contemplation. Before a person can become an observer and then an actor, they must have more thought and consultation, and most importantly, people must have an organic and organized relationship with each other in order to take the work more seriously, continuously, and deeply.

Thank you for the time you have given us.