Conversation with Ali Kalai

Dr. Hassan Tayyee is a professor and faculty member at Allameh Tabataba’i University. During part of the eleventh government, he served as the Deputy of Employment under Ali Rabiei, the Minister of Cooperatives, Labor, and Social Welfare. He is a distinguished academic in the field of employment and labor and is a reputable economist in the country.

The title of the Master’s thesis is “Human Resources and Employment Trends in the Iranian Economy” and the title of the PhD dissertation is “Time Allocation, Household Labor Supply, and Demand for Goods and Services”.

The monthly magazine “Khat-e-Solh” has discussed the issue of unemployment and the internship program of the twelfth government in this issue. Hassan Tayyie believes that “if the internship program is implemented properly and given the necessary allocations, it can solve one of the problems of our higher education, which is the lack of familiarity of graduates with the job market.”

Mr. Doctor Tayyai, what does creating jobs and employment mean? Can we consider unstable jobs as employment when calculating unemployment rates?

According to global standards, statistics, and definitions that exist, if someone has a job for one hour per week that results in monetary or non-monetary income, they are considered employed. However, whether this job is sustainable or not, whether it is in the formal or informal sector, and whether it is in a productive or non-productive sector are other factors to consider. Therefore, when the International Labour Organization (ILO) talks about employment and unemployment, there are many reasons for their analysis. For example, 20 years ago, they used to say that if someone worked one day per week (the week in which the census is usually conducted), they were considered employed. But now, the definition is that if someone works one hour per week, they are considered employed. By studying the documents and reasons of this organization, we understand that this is a strong and accurate statement. On the other hand, in addition to this indicator, we must also refer to key indicators of the labor market

The twelfth government currently has what measures and plans to reduce unemployment rates in the country, and how seriously do you evaluate the officials’ determination to curb unemployment?

According to the documents of the Sixth Development Plan and the plan set by the government for the year 1396, the volume of investment, economic growth rate, changes and developments in the infrastructure budget, foreign investment discussion, improvement of the business environment, and other plans that have been currently formulated at the macro level of economic sectors – namely at the level of the Ministry of Cooperatives, Labor, and Social Welfare – it seems that employment will be the main issue for the twelfth government. Therefore, considering the content mentioned in the Sixth Plan and the prerequisites that are mentioned both in the statements of officials and in the documents and plans for the year 1396 budget, it appears that our job market will be better in 1396 compared to 1395. However, it should be noted that we have a large supply and demand in the job market and in fact, we are facing a population of millions of unemployed individuals. So we will have a long and difficult road towards a balanced job

Given the determination of the twelfth government to solve the problem of unemployment, one of the government’s programs to combat unemployment is called the internship plan. Where did this plan come from and why did the government come up with such an idea?

The two terms “Apprenticeship” and “Traineeship” are frequently used in literature related to the economy and job market, which in Persian are equivalent to “karoarzi” and “karamoozi”. These two concepts are taken seriously in all countries. Some countries, from the beginning of their educational system, especially in higher education and even before that, require students to visit the work environment and spend some time there. This means that not all of a person’s time is spent in school or university. For example, Germany has a dual education system, which means that the concept of apprenticeship is taken seriously in universities and given attention. This issue exists in countries like the United States, France, and England as well. This means that the concept of apprenticeship is related to the transition process from school to the job market, which is a program that all countries have in mind and has a historical background. However, some countries have stronger systems and even bring up

Regarding internships in Iran, this discussion is related to continuing education, which means continuing learning and employment. We previously had a mentor-apprentice program in our country. This meant that after a certain age and upon completing the school years, the individual would go to a room, workshop, or any place that offered a job and learn the trade. As they gradually learned the trade, they would become a daily wage worker. Some of them would even reach the position of a mentor and become business owners. This mentor-apprentice program was officially implemented in our country 10 years ago and was successful in the 80s. Other countries also had similar mentor-apprentice programs in their ancient times. Currently, the internship program has been included in the agenda of the twelfth government, and I hope it can be successful in familiarizing students with the business environment. When discussing this issue in the Ministry of Labor, we always talk about empowerment, employability, and entrepreneurship of students and university

There are various discussions about the country’s transition to a knowledge-based economy. What is the relationship between internships and this issue?

The discussion of internships for university graduates is currently being developed and debated, and is set to be implemented. If graduates come and enter the workforce, our prediction is that many of them, when they become familiar with the work environment, will be dissuaded from seeking traditional employment and instead decide to start their own businesses. Therefore, with the increasing emphasis on knowledge and innovation in both domestic and international spheres, these individuals want to move towards entrepreneurship and creating new businesses where they can be self-employed. Once their situation improves, they will need to hire others to work for them in order to expand and increase productivity, and ultimately become serious entrepreneurs. Therefore, our expectation is that internships can provide a platform for these individuals to earn wages and salaries, and also push some of them towards entrepreneurship.

Dear Mr. Tayy, the issue of increasing production in our country is very serious. Does this plan address the issue of increasing production? And what is the relationship between this plan and the issue of production?

See, the size and expectation of our plan should be limited. Increasing production is another subject. Of course, we really need to increase production, increase the level of gross domestic production and its high growth rate. All of these are correct in their own place. But when it comes to the internship plan that is supposed to cover a hundred thousand people, considering the volume of 22 million employed people in the country, the amount and level of change that these individuals can bring about in production is very small. As I mentioned before, the internship plan means preparing graduates to play the role of a salaried employee, an independent employee, and an employee who can also be an employer and hire others. Of course, this takes time.

As a final question, please explain what results this plan can bring for the country’s economy and what its outlook is.

Internship program can solve one of the problems of our higher education system, which is very theoretical and abstract, and can pave the way towards practicality for our graduates. In other words, in order for them to have a better position in the job market in terms of salary and benefits, and to have access to job opportunities, it can make them more capable. Therefore, it can be said that the internship program is a bridge between the higher education sector of the country and other economic and social activities.

Considering the millions of students (as you know, we currently have about 5 million students and every year around the same number enter universities), if this plan is implemented properly and given the necessary allocations, it can solve one of the problems of our higher education, which is the lack of familiarity of graduates with the job market. If we can successfully implement the internship plan, for example, next year instead of 100,000 people, we can include 200,000 graduates under this plan and gradually expand it to higher levels so that it becomes a complement to our educational system and a complement to the curriculum that students study. In fact, if this internship plan is implemented well, it solves a serious problem for Iran’s economy. Our students must become familiar with the job market according to global standards. This plan can achieve that.

Thank you for the time you have given us.