We have heard and know about the torture of the eyes, but what about the torturers? To what extent are we familiar with the character and expertise of torturers in carrying out various forms of torture and violence?

Stanley Milgram, a famous American psychologist, based on his well-known experiment, has proven that the ability to harm others is against personal conscience and should be attributed to social conditions and political system. On the other hand, Theodor Adorno, based on his research, believes that the social-political upbringing of humans is shaped by individual actions and reactions within the family. This prominent German sociologist and philosopher considers obedience to authority, conformity to group norms, and denial of one’s own emotions as prerequisites for inflicting torture.

We asked Monireh Baradaran, a writer and researcher who has herself experienced imprisonment and torture during the two previous periods and after the February 57 revolution, whether a torturer is born or made? Or how a person can reach a point where they can inflict such treatment on their fellow human beings? In this conversation, we also discussed the reasons behind the emotional relationship that sometimes develops between the torturer and the victim…

Many people, under torture, avoid narrating what has been imposed on them; in fact, describing the torture they have endured can be painful and perhaps even humiliating from their own perspective. What is your approach to this issue?

I tried to write about my experience of 9 years in prison during the Islamic Republic period in the book “Simple Truth”, which includes my memories of torture. The experience of torture, both my own and witnessing it in others, is very complex and difficult to convey for various reasons. One of the reasons is the extraordinary and beyond ordinary life experiences. It is hard to put into words, for example, the pain of torture is very difficult and even impossible to express because it is different from the pain that other humans experience in their lives. This pain is both physical and a great spiritual pain that humiliates a person. The experience of torture and its reactions are such that even the person themselves do not know if those reactions belong to them. For example, the screams that you let out during torture may feel foreign to you or you may even beg for the torture to stop. These are experiences that the person themselves cannot imagine and after it is over, they do not want to talk about it and

In fact, this is a general principle in psychology that an individual tends to relive such memories and mental experiences, not to forget them, but to recall them again in detail, as if repeating the same pain and situation. This is the human defense mechanism and has little to do with taboos of individuals and society, and is a general principle. Of course, there is a taboo, especially in our generation, and that is to consider resistance to torture as an ideal and idealistic act. In fact, being a hero had no direct connection to not giving information under torture. We are the generation of revolution; a generation that entered the battlefield with its own slogans and ideals. Later, in relation to the confessions made by prisoners, we saw that the attitudes of society and the new generation were much easier, but in our time we witnessed strictness and even cruelty in relation to forced confessions; confessions that were taken under constant torture.

Perhaps this was also one of the reasons that hindered talking about torture easily. But as I mentioned, the determining factor is the psychological aspect of the issue. Personally, I tried to write about torture and the type of torture in detail; however, I couldn’t express my feelings because I lacked the words. For example, after I passed out from torture – not just because of the pain of the lashes, but also because of the suffocating feeling from having my mouth covered with a hand – when I regained consciousness, the first thing I heard was: “Cover yourself, shameless.” After that, I don’t know what I should have written or said. Anyone who reads this should imagine how much a person is humiliated and what they are in the eyes of the torturer…

“Dear brothers and sisters, some suggest forgiveness as a means of inner healing for torture victims, as we have seen in South Africa. In your opinion, can it be said that forgiving can bring inner peace?”

The issue of forgiveness has become very political in Iran. If it had been raised in South Africa, it was because during the transition period, according to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that was formed – which was not the first of its kind but was unique – all individuals spoke of their pain and suffering in the media over a long period of time and the people heard their voices and this issue became official. On the other hand, the torturers themselves had introduced and confessed to their actions and had accepted the existence of sexual apartheid. Based on this, despite all the violence and naked brutality, they saw the solution to rebuilding society and their evaluation was certainly correct. I want to say that the context was completely different. Although many did not forgive because they believed their rights were not taken or were taken too late; now it remains that unfortunately violence still exists in that society.

But in our society, without any admission and without officials accepting the occurrence of the crime and still being in power, and in a situation where the victims have no voice, talking about forgiveness seems like a place for Arabs. In fact, I can ask the question, what and who should I forgive?!

Afterwards, it should be considered that the issue has both personal and social aspects; on a personal level, individuals may have different emotional reactions to the issue, but on a broader scale and in society, if the process is not followed, the discussion of forgiveness will be completely deviant, as the discussion of justice and accountability comes into play. In fact, I want to say that personally, for example, because I have never seen my interrogator and I have no idea who he was, I have no personal feelings towards him and if I see him, I will not have any animosity towards him, but their lack of accountability is unacceptable to me. I am not a vengeful person, but why does society not take a step in this regard? Why does human rights, which is based on accountability, ignore this issue?

As I mentioned, this topic in our society is completely deviant; because there is still no background for it.

In your opinion, is a torturer born or raised? How does a family or a governmental system contribute to the production or upbringing of a torturer?

Unfortunately, in our society, not much has been done about this issue. Regarding torturers in the Islamic Republic, such an opportunity has not existed so far, and also in relation to the previous regime, because the approach to dealing with torturers, such as Savak, after the revolution was retaliatory, there was no opportunity to conduct long and principled interviews with them based on psychological foundations.

But considering other societies that have worked on this issue or my own beliefs, I think that the situation is torturous for these individuals. Of course, this does not mean that anyone can torture; although the result of some research is such, personally I do not accept this and I am not so pessimistic about human nature.

One of the issues that can lead a person to torture is the preservation of absolute power. At least in the 1990s, it was clear that torturers were willing to do anything to maintain their power. Another issue was the lack of accountability, even in the face of death for those being tortured. It is also important to consider the ideological perspective that causes the torturer to not see the prisoner-victim as a fellow human being. In fact, the torturer not only lacks any empathy or compassion, but also sees the victim as “outside of themselves.” Therefore, they can do anything to them. In this regard, even if we look at the concept of impurity and purity from an ideological and religious perspective, this issue becomes apparent. For example, in our culture, dogs are considered impure and any interaction with them is permissible; this view also exists towards non-believers, and it was even believed that it was acceptable to treat the children of militants in this way

In another book that I published under the title “Psychology of Torture” and addressed the phenomenon of repentance and guidance, this question is raised for someone who has been in that situation, how can a human being, as a torturer, behave in such a way towards their own kind. In short, based on the memories I have heard and read, and the actions that have been taken in this regard, the answer to this question is that the torturer does not see you as their own kind and sees you as outside of humanity, and therefore, you are not a person – a human being – to them, and that is why they can inflict that pain on you.

“In relation to the torturer and the victim, we asked and you said; the question we want to raise here is about the relationship of friendship and even romantic relationship that sometimes occurs between the “victim or prisoner” and the “torturer or interrogator”. What happens to the victim that such a relationship is formed? Of course, this issue is more relevant to recent years, but what is your opinion on this matter and have you ever encountered such a case?”

“These matters must be addressed one by one in order to reach a general conclusion, which is very difficult. If I were to speak of our own time, there were cases – concerning women – where a love for their torturers had developed. In these cases, individuals would often distance themselves from their previous position and reconcile, but it must be kept in mind that despite the change in their situation, they were still prisoners and their captors were still interrogators and torturers. Of course, it is true that reconciliation was mostly relevant to our time, but this phenomenon is generally universal. For example, phenomena such as the victim’s love for the abuser, which Anna Freud, the daughter of Sigmund Freud, has addressed, or Stockholm syndrome, where a person falls in love with their kidnapper (although this was not a political issue), can be considered in this context. With this definition, it can be said that the victim’s attraction to their torturer or interrogator has a

Or, another case, related to teenagers who would develop a paternalistic feeling towards lapis lazuli… As I mentioned, it seems that there should be a case study in this area, but it can also be said that the change in position or the same process of brainwashing, on one hand, and the feeling of helplessness that it gives to the individual, on the other hand, can be important factors in this phenomenon. In fact, the person becomes empty and seeks refuge in the arms of the one who caused their helplessness in order to maintain their safety. Regarding the feeling of helplessness that I mentioned to you, it should be noted that during our time, torture was carried out in the name of God and religion, and interrogators would perform ablution before torture and sometimes even recite verses from the Quran with the rhythm of lashes. This very issue actually causes the victim, who may not even be religious, to feel even more helpless, as they have been raised with

Can you briefly analyze the personality of a torturer – for example, your own as an example? In this regard, can it be argued that a torturer is mentally ill?

For two main reasons, I am not able to examine or analyze the personality of a torturer; I have always had a blindfold over my eyes and have never seen the face of my interrogator or torturer. In addition, my interrogators would change at different times, so I never had the opportunity to be in front of just one person. Another reason is that in the Islamic Republic – as I mentioned before – there is no opportunity to get to know and talk to torturers in order to examine their personalities.

Therefore, it is not possible for me to answer such a question and I cannot label someone as a mentally ill or sadistic without any evidence or direct observations, or without the results of scientific research.

But if I can relate this to your question, I can say that recently in the memories of one of the prisoners of the 90s, I read that after being tortured, the interrogator cried in front of the prisoner. This cry can be interpreted as a game; the torturer tortures but at the same time wants to show himself as a victim and alleviate the intensity of his own actions, not only in front of the person he has victimized, but even in front of himself and his own mind. In fact, this may be a way for the person to satisfy themselves internally and relieve their conscience.

It may be necessary to mention that we have not heard of anyone who resigns from interrogation or torture, only to bring disaster upon themselves. In fact, this shows that they have the right to choose and can choose not to do this…

What types of public torture were more prevalent in the 1960s? Can it be argued that the types of torture currently being carried out are progressing from black to white?

See, in the 1960s, there were severe mental tortures, but perhaps due to censorship or the severity of physical tortures, this issue was not widely publicized or emphasized. In 1983, when I myself was in that situation, we were completely cut off from the outside world. The issue of beds, coffins, or in the case of Mujahideen, a residential unit mentioned in memories, existed. These are the same conditions of absolute isolation; with blindfolds, forced standing facing the wall, forced use of a veil [for women], and not hearing any sound, in fact, they completely cut off the five senses of humans, especially vision, hearing, and touch. At McGill University, a milder version of this experiment was carried out and the results showed that individuals lose their mental balance after 48 hours; now imagine that in some cases, this situation lasted up to 10 months. Or individuals who, for example, in G

With this account, during that period, we were faced with both black torture and white torture. In fact, the phenomenon of torture has emerged from the heart of this same terrible pressure, this same atmosphere of humiliation and constant harassment. See, for example, during the Shah’s era, individuals were tortured during specific time intervals and interrogations, and then sent to prison; although it was possible for them to be punished in prison, usually this period of torture would end after a while. However, in contrast, during the 1960s, such a period never really ended; except for a very short period of reforms in 1985-1986, led by Mr. Montazeri, which were only seen more in Qezelhesar prison. The constant confrontation with death, which was not just a delusion, happened exactly in 1988 (that’s why I say the period of torture did not end completely), and it puts psychological pressure and stress on a person,

Thank you for the time you have given us and apologies for possibly bringing up painful memories with these questions…

According to one of the mothers in Mayu Square in Argentina, the pain that we don’t give meaning to is of no use.

It is worth mentioning at the end that in a society where torture, especially in a systematic and legal form, exists, irreparable damage is inflicted. In fact, not only the individual being tortured becomes a victim, but torture is a threat to the entire society.

In our society, torture exists and continues to exist in a legal form. In Islamic penal law – now under any name, whether it be punishment, retribution, stoning, etc. – torture has been legalized and the society as a whole remains silent against it. I want to say that the most important issue for changing our society is the eradication of torture under any name, and I emphasize that the elimination of torture is more important than anything else.