Conversation with Simin Rouzgar

Sohand Azarturk is a successful graduate of the Faculty of Law in Ankara and a member of the Ankara Bar Association and the Central Bar Association (of all of Turkey). In addition to having previous experience working in the judiciary in Ankara as a specialist, he also worked for approximately 6 years as an employee of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) in Turkey until 2012, and also volunteered in Assam for a period of time to work on refugee affairs.

As part of the special feature of this issue of Khat-e-Solh magazine, we have had a conversation with them regarding the situation of refugees and asylum seekers in Turkey. In this conversation, we have tried to understand the situation of Iranian refugees and asylum seekers living in Turkey, taking into account the new law on foreign nationals and international support that was passed in April 2013 and implemented in April 2014, as well as the increasing number of refugees in Turkey in recent years. We have also looked at the positive and negative changes that have accompanied the situation of Iranian refugees and asylum seekers in Turkey.

Mr. Azarturk, as the first question, could you please provide statistics on the current number of Iranian refugees in Turkey?

There is no accurate statistics available in this regard, but currently there are about 100,000 open cases (excluding others that have not been legally registered or have been closed) with the United Nations. It is not clear how many of these cases belong to Iranians, and it is usually determined at the same time as the statistics presented by the United Nations at the end of each year.

We must also consider that in recent years, as we move forward, the number of refugees in Turkey has increased.

In recent decades, in which years and mostly for what reason, have more Iranians declared asylum in Turkey?

See, unfortunately there is no accurate statistics available on this matter and even the United Nations has not provided any statistics. However, usually after major political and social events that occur in Iran, such as the events after the 88 election in Iran, the number of Iranians seeking asylum at the United Nations as political refugees immediately increases and then gradually returns to normal. In other periods, especially recently, the number of religious and ideological refugees are in the first category.

Recently, and in accordance with new laws in Turkey, rights such as free healthcare and the right to work and study have been considered for refugees, which has significantly reduced their problems compared to the past; please explain a little about these laws and the reasons for their existence.

Yes, according to the new law, all refugees who have an identity card or KIMLIK can use health insurance. This insurance covers almost all medical needs and has no restrictions except for issues that are not considered serious illnesses, such as dental implants, which are not covered by health insurance in many European countries.

In regards to education, it should be noted that this right existed for refugees before, but it was not mentioned in the law.

From a legal perspective, if we look at the new law – apart from the restrictions that apply to all foreign nationals and in some areas they are not allowed to work – such as foreign nationals not being able to practice law – there are no specific restrictions on working. However, the problem is that if one of the citizens wants to hire a refugee, they must go to the Department of Labor and Social Affairs, and if this department agrees to the refugee’s employment, they can start working. The employer is also obliged to pay the minimum wage and insurance, which unfortunately most employers do not comply with. In fact, the administrative process is lengthy and not financially beneficial for them. Currently, most refugees work, but in an illegal and informal manner, which deprives them of many of their rights.

Regarding this law, it must be said that the EU has lobbied with the Turkish government and had detailed discussions, but the main reason for its creation is the harmonization of Turkish laws with the European Union. Turkey did not have specific laws regarding refugees before and the laws related to refugees were scattered and superficial, but due to its commitments to the EU, the Turkish government was forced to pass such a law.

Until just a few years ago, refugees in Turkey had even harder conditions; including having to pay money to the Turkish government…

Yes, unfortunately in the past and especially before this new law, because there was no comprehensive law regarding refugees, refugees were also forced to pay money like other foreign nationals when going to government offices, and the issue of bribery also existed.

After the earthquake in Van, which caused the temporary closure of the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in this city, what difficulties did Iranian refugees living in this city face? Additionally, what advantages and disadvantages did the presence of two active UN offices in Turkey have for refugees?

After the earthquake in Van, refugees faced real difficulties and at that time they urgently needed help. Apart from the fact that the facilities in Van were limited and could not be quickly put into operation, the facilities of the Turkish government were also limited. Even the people of Van were able to provide initial assistance after a few days. After that, the problem that refugees faced was that the authorities asked them to introduce a relative or acquaintance in another city so that they could be sent there. This was in a situation where refugees did not necessarily have any relatives or acquaintances in other cities and, on the other hand, considering that they had been living in Van for some time, they had already established a place to live and work for themselves. After that, they were forced to start from scratch and when the Van office was closed, there was no longer a place in this city to support refugees. This was also a problem for those who came to this city illegally or even legally, causing difficulties for them

The establishment of a Yuan office in Van was due to the fact that those who entered Turkey illegally were at risk of being deported before reaching Ankara, as they did not have any documents. Therefore, the United Nations would register them when they arrived at the first border city in Turkey, and then they would be directed to the Turkish government to obtain legal status. This was a great advantage.

One of the drawbacks that can be mentioned for it is that, considering the fact that the Van office was located far from the central office in Ankara, it was a bit difficult for refugees to communicate with the central office and address their problems to them. However, in my opinion, its advantage outweighs its drawbacks.

After the Van earthquake, despite the fact that none of the top officials of the United Nations organization remained in Van and they all went to Ankara, this office was not completely closed and there were officials at lower levels who maintained communication with Ankara. Currently, the Van office has become more active and guides refugees who arrive in Van to relevant places, but as far as I know, no more interviews are conducted at that office.

Furthermore, Yuan also has an office in Istanbul which, despite being active from the beginning, is affiliated with the central office and almost no interviews are conducted there. This is while in the Van office, before it became semi-active, interviews were conducted and all decisions, even at higher levels, were made there. The Istanbul office was established because this city is considered a border city by Europe and as you are aware, there are many refugees here, especially those who are smuggled from Istanbul to Europe. However, as I mentioned, the Istanbul office is more affiliated with Ankara and currently, everything is done in the central office, which is also in Ankara.

Almost all of the lawyers of the United Nations who interview Iranian refugees are not Iranian. How familiar are these individuals with the conditions in Iran, especially the political situation of the country? Is there a specific reason for them not being Iranian?

Currently, it can be said that all the lawyers who are interviewing with Iranians are 100% non-Iranian. Until four to five years ago, one or two of them were originally Iranian and were interviewing with Iranians, but as you are aware, we cannot talk about their identity.

Those who enter this section are trained and given necessary information about Iran before entering, and with consideration of these issues, they interview and make decisions with refugees. However, they may not be aware of all the details and issues, but there is accurate information about the political, religious, and social situation of Iran in the UN database. All accepted or rejected answers are based on that database and, of course, the refugees’ own statements.

Some of the refugees who have also received acceptance from the United Nations, no country accepts them. In this regard, we are almost witnessing that the United Nations does not take any effective action and these individuals, who mostly left Iran illegally, cannot return for the same reason they left and remain in uncertain conditions in Turkey for years… What is your opinion on this? Shouldn’t the United Nations be more sensitive and follow up on these cases, or can the Turkish government not grant them permanent residency?

The majority of these political cases that you mention, meaning cases that are accepted but not determined, are related to individuals who had organizational or at least indirect connections with armed political organizations. These organizations were mostly listed as terrorist organizations in different time periods by European or American countries, and some of them may still be listed; therefore, some countries do not accept them.

Regarding UNHCR, if we look at their duties according to the law, determining the country is not one of their responsibilities and they have no obligation to anyone. Their duty is to ensure the safety of individuals who for any reason seek refuge in UNHCR offices, with the help of the country they are in, and also to determine their legal status and give them acceptance or rejection. It must be said that although UNHCR has some authority in sending refugees to third countries, they cannot do much for these individuals; although they sometimes lobby and hold meetings to be able to send these individuals to third countries.

Regarding the issue of the Turkish government granting long-term or permanent residency to these individuals, it must be said that current laws in Turkey do not allow for such permission. Those who wish to obtain residency must first have a passport, and the majority of these individuals do not have passports. Furthermore, for those who are seeking asylum in Turkey and wish to change their residency status, for example by leaving their asylum and obtaining a different type of residency, they must first renounce their asylum status. Once they have renounced it, they must physically leave Turkey, obtain a new residence visa, and then re-enter Turkey. However, these individuals are essentially unable to return to their home country to obtain a new visa, as you mentioned. In addition to these issues, when someone with such circumstances leaves Turkey, they are banned from re-entering the country for one to five years, and sometimes even for life. As a result, these individuals are unable to obtain residency in Turkey, except in very limited and

It must be said that despite not officially announcing it, the Turkish government believes that when they signed the 1951 Geneva Convention, they did so with the condition of geographical limitations. This geographical limitation means that those who come to Turkey from Eastern countries are not accepted as “refugees” by the country, but only as “asylum seekers”. In the new law, they have even changed the name to “conditional refugee”. This means that under this title, they accept them and say that they are not responsible for them. The United Nations, with knowledge and acceptance of this issue, has established offices in Turkish territory and in fact, the Turkish government says that we are referring to our own laws and it is the duty of the United Nations to solve the problem of these individuals.

On the other hand, the United Nations also states that, as mentioned, I am not obligated to send these individuals one hundred percent to a third country; I simply determine whether this person is entitled to asylum or not.

Regarding countries, as you know, individuals are interviewed at embassies, and these interviews have become much more difficult and detailed compared to before, and are essentially supplementary interviews. Countries also have the right to say, despite the individual being accepted by the United Nations, that we do not accept you as a refugee, and of course, their internal laws are separate from whether they accept or reject them.

As a result, the mentioned individuals, unfortunately, have fallen between these laws and are in a suspended state in Turkey…

Which countries currently accept refugees from Turkey and what is their share?

Currently, there are three main countries that accept refugees from Turkey, namely the United States, Canada, and Australia. European countries, with a few exceptions, do not take in any refugees from Turkey. These three countries also have specific quotas for the number of refugees they accept each year. However, there are exceptions, such as the recent events in Syria, which have prompted some countries to open their doors to these refugees…

I should also mention that, due to the Syrian refugee crisis, the statistics of Iranian acceptance by the mentioned countries have decreased compared to before.

As the final question regarding “Asam” and the “Helsinki” organization, please explain to our audience. For example, how effective is Asam in expediting the affairs of refugees and what kind of assistance does it provide to them?

Both Asam and the Helsinki Foundation are NGOs and are considered non-profit organizations that are funded by various organizations and some Western countries.

Currently, it can be said that the main duty of ASAM is to register asylum seekers in the first step, without differentiating between legal or illegal entry into Turkey, and provide them with a document that proves their identity so that their legal status is not compromised. Previously, the Yuan was responsible for this task, but as I mentioned, the number of applicants has increased significantly and this organization is unable to handle it on its own.

One of the other duties of ASAM is to establish communication between refugees and the United Nations organization, and to address any issues that arise between refugees and Turkish government agencies to the best of its ability. It also strives to resolve other problems faced by refugees, for example, we know individuals whose financial situation is very poor and ASAM, by contacting the governorates and prefectures, provides limited financial assistance for them.

The central office of Asam is located in the city of Ankara, and although not in all, but in the majority of cities where refugees reside, especially in cities that have historically welcomed refugees, such as Nusaybin, Kayseri, Kirsehir and the surrounding cities of Ankara, it has an office.

The Helsinki Committee, according to the agreement it has with the United Nations, is currently working to provide legal assistance to asylum seekers. However, the power and number of employees of this organization are limited, and for example, this organization can only speak to individuals who send their files to Helsinki after seven to eight months.

If there is a specific point you have in mind at the end, please let me know…

Unfortunately, recently and especially due to the high number of refugees, individuals in various cities in Turkey, under the title of lawyers and the like, deceive them and take thousands of dollars without doing any work, and give them wrong information; such as saying that according to the laws of the United Nations, you do not have the right to have a lawyer. In fact, it should be said that considering the fact that the United Nations does not have the capacity to respond to the large number of asylum seekers currently in Turkey, refugees face many difficulties in communicating with the UN, and in the meantime, opportunistic individuals take advantage of this situation.

One last point is that refugees should kindly ask any government or administrative authority they visit and are told that they do not have a certain right, to explicitly ask that authority which law states that I do not have this right? For example, which law states that I do not have the right to work? In fact, refugees should not be afraid in this regard; because they are seeking their own rights, and the person they are discussing with cannot alone violate their rights or deport them. In fact, they should not be afraid at all and should stand up for their own rights.

Thank you for the opportunity you have given us.