Conversation with Ali Kalai

Despite the worsening crisis of air pollution in the country’s major cities, especially in Tehran, none of the relevant organizations have presented a specific and effective plan to combat it. This is happening while recently, partisan debates on this issue have intensified and each organization is blaming the responsibility on others.

In this regard, the peace line has gone to Dr. Ahmad Alavi and has had a conversation with this economic researcher and university professor in Sweden to clarify the reason for the emergence of this problem.

Mr. Alavi believes that if industrial centers around Tehran are distributed throughout the country, and this city is no longer in a centralized state, there will be no need to resort to mind-boggling solutions; short-term solutions to solve the traffic problem or develop public transportation, which will not be sustainable…

Dear Mr. Alavi, to what extent does the development of public transportation in Iran help solve the problem of air pollution in major cities?

At the beginning, it must be said that the issue of air pollution in big cities is not limited to this problem and is caused by a series of factors. In Iran, through attracting capital and rent, they have caused a concentration to form and this concentration has led to an abnormal population in a city like Tehran. It is natural that with management weaknesses and also with the shortcomings in the field of technology, such a population concentration cannot be successful. In the current situation and in other countries, before anything else, they think about the issue of population planning – how the population should be distributed – and then create the necessary infrastructure for building cities. Developed countries have tried to be politically, economically, and urbanistically decentralized, and this has made it easier to solve problems. Aside from this issue, there is also the problem of population growth in Iran, which is not in harmony with economic growth and infrastructure development.

Due to these factors, there are currently several major cities in Iran that are investing in capital and this concentration has caused these problems. Considering the existing facilities in terms of infrastructure and finance, it is not possible to maintain the conditions as they were before. By studying the major cities of the world, such as Washington and Stockholm, we see that these cities had long-term plans for hundreds of years. You can see that ministries are not only concentrated in one city. They may only have an office in the capital and the rest of their departments are distributed in other parts of the country.

Therefore, the first issue before anything else is the issue of lack of concentration politically and economically, which can solve problems, and in the next stage, the management issue is raised, and that is to use the existing facilities properly.

The issue of public transportation is also very important and, of course, requires advanced technology that is not expected to be fully available in Iran.

However, this importance is while the mayor of Tehran, as the main responsible for this matter, has announced that the government does not pay its 82% share for public transportation development and that is why Tehran is currently facing a shortage of more than 5,000 buses. Do you know the reason for the government’s negligence in this regard and can the responsibility be shifted to the municipality with such reasoning?

Basically, the responsible party for these matters, in other countries where they have been successful in solving problems, is an organization that is accountable to the public, responsive, and transparent in its work. In fact, citizens can see how the public budget is being spent. The government in Iran is not very accountable. As a result, this issue becomes a political issue instead of just an economic one. The municipality should be responsible for this, but it should be a municipality that has been elected by the people and is accountable. Of course, there is a city council, but its duty is also clear.

It must be said that the government’s main focus is on distributing rent. The Tehran municipality has also become more of a political party, using available resources and capacities to gain power, rather than addressing the concerns of citizens and creating welfare. Of course, this does not mean that they do not address these issues at all, but they are not doing so to the extent expected and as is common in the world.

Another important issue is that individuals with positions and roles, specifically in municipalities, are not experts in this field, while in the world, usually those who hold positions in municipalities either have their own expertise or are fundamentally within the framework of social capital and people’s institutions that engage in these activities.

In your opinion, why did the government choose to spend money on purchasing 25 million loans for cars instead of allocating it towards public transportation development? What benefits are there in this regard?

Regarding these loans, we see that the government’s clear goal was to empty the warehouses of the car manufacturing companies in order to save them from bankruptcy. At the same time, on paper, a growth rate was shown to silence the criticism about the lack of economic growth and other issues, such as the four ministers’ letter to the president. This action can be considered a temporary solution, even though we know the quality of these cars is not in favor of the consumer and we know that this action was a corrupt one, as the government took the bribe from the pockets of the consumers and put them in debt.

In fact, the government does not have a long-term view and if it did, it would see that the automobile industry does not have the necessary quality. On the other hand, in case of its closure, a large number of people become unemployed. Instead of providing loans, it should invest and change the production line from personal cars to public transportation vehicles. But this view takes time and requires a strategic approach, which is not in the best interest of managers or even the government, which wants to solve problems temporarily and superficially through housing and temporary measures.

Regarding the discussion about using public transportation, the people are also on the other side of the story. If we ignore the deficiencies and poor quality of the public transportation system, why do you think people prefer to use personal vehicles instead of public transportation?

Yes, this is also a problem and it relates to social issues. In fact, the use of public transportation should be turned into a value for citizens. If we compare, in a country like Sweden, in many cities that are managed in a decentralized manner, people go about their daily tasks by walking, biking, or using public transportation. On the other hand, in some developing countries, using personal vehicles has become a status symbol that gives people prestige, while in a country like Sweden, using public facilities gives people status and elevates their position. This is because in their value system, not harming the environment and not increasing traffic is seen as fulfilling a duty.

This is a complex issue, but suitable solutions have also been found for it; if coordination can be established between components such as economy, environmental conditions, and social relationships. Otherwise, something similar to the experience seen in Iran will happen.

Another question that is raised is that in many countries around the world, numerous scientific studies are conducted on the relationship between economy and air pollution. However, in Iran, we are only witnessing a few scattered researches; what is the reason for this? Also, what is your opinion on such a relationship, especially from a political economy perspective?

Unfortunately, research in Iran is not independent from the government and its budget; therefore, research is also a type of rent-seeking. These issues have not been a priority for the government. Furthermore, research in Iran is fundamentally flawed due to structural deficiencies. This means that in our country, there are no independent universities that can be critical and look at issues regardless of political biases. We also see that university staff, and at least those who make decisions, are often individuals who have entered this system through rent-seeking, have been selected, and have commitments to the government. When political interests take precedence over societal interests, it is natural that research does not move in that direction and at most, results in the production of articles that the government is interested in researching or increasing statistics.

On the other hand, the research that is being conducted is not practical and it is not done in a way that can serve as a basis for decision making and strategic transformation, and it is often not inquisitive. If we look at the application of research from the perspective of research philosophy and epistemological framework, we see that since in Iran they wanted the educational system to be within the framework or under the influence of the seminary, instead of purely empirical discussions, the focus is on theological discussions. In fact, the history of knowledge production in Iran is theological, which justifies and rationalizes the current situation. In contrast, in the West, research is not conducted to confirm the ruling system, but rather to question the current situation.

If you look at citizens as consumers and the government as a seller of a series of services based on the definitions of microeconomics, there should be a balance between them. The citizen should be sure that by purchasing services from this seller, they will receive their desired goods, in this case clean air. If this relationship is balanced, it will reach a desirable point; meaning that if the goods are not desirable, they will be returned. We do not have the concept of customer and seller in Iran. We have a so-called master and servant relationship, which is a vertical relationship. If we bring this relationship to Europe, the result will be the same. In this vertical relationship, the issue of paying taxes to a government that is not accountable and transparent is like giving a chick to a fox. The issue is simple in one way and difficult to analyze in another. As Iranians, and based on traditional interpretations, we see the government as a guardian and father figure. While the government is not

The natural position is just this. The natural position is not for the government to follow the interests of the people. Essentially, the progress of democracy came for this reason. The government is a necessary evil and has its own problems and damages. The mechanism of European cities is to try to make a city self-sufficient and even bring its management to the level of neighborhoods, and in neighborhoods they are forced to face each other.

When taxes are paid, these taxes must be controlled monthly so that they are not misused. The natural situation is to misuse them and the way to prevent this is to use democratic management mechanisms.

Currently, many countries are using non-fossil fuels that prevent damage to the environment. Considering the historical and global approach of a country like Iran, can a model be proposed in this regard?

Yes, in Iran, because of the availability of gas and oil, people do not place much importance on non-fossil energy, while Iran has much more potential for using non-fossil energy, both in terms of wind and solar radiation, than, for example, Scandinavian countries, which have made significant progress in this regard.

Of course, I only mention this example in order to emphasize that, according to research methods, in order to polarize and see, certain issues must be raised in order to better analyze them. Otherwise, if a pattern is to be considered, it must be a native pattern. Additionally, in the vicinity of Iran, we have the country of Turkey, which makes significant use of solar energy. Furthermore, we have a diverse climate and weather in Iran. However, these countries are small and have less potential for population dispersion compared to a country like Iran.

Thank you for the opportunity you have given me to participate in the peace talks; at the end, if there is any point you have in mind, please let me know.

At the end, it must be said that if industrial centers around Tehran are distributed throughout the country and this city is no longer centralized, there will be no need to resort to mind-boggling solutions; short-term solutions to solve the traffic problem or develop public transportation, which will not be sustainable. Therefore, what is recommended is long-term and strategic solutions.

In fact, the development of a land that can lead to the distribution of resources and population must take place. It is said that about 30% of Iran’s gross domestic product is concentrated in Tehran. When this concentration exists, employment and the level of educational, training, and medical services are higher, and migration to Tehran is inevitable.