Alireza Saqafi is a labor activist and member of the Association of Workers’ Rights Defenders and the Association of Iranian Writers. He, who is one of the veteran labor activists in Iran, has been repeatedly arrested and imprisoned by security forces for his labor activities.

Saghefi, in an interview with the monthly magazine Khat-e-Solh, considers the Ministry of Labor’s internship program, which has recently officially started to register job seekers and unemployed university graduates, a “failed plan” that “will not lead anywhere.”

This well-known activist in Iran, who has serious criticisms of the internship program, believes that “no program is executable in this bubble of corruption that reigns here.”

As you are aware, a program called “Internship from the Era of Presidential Advertising” has been launched. What are the main objectives and strategies of this internship program and what specific goal is the government pursuing in establishing this system?

This plan, like many other plans, is just a plan in name. If you remember, during Ahmadinejad’s time, they also brought up the master-apprentice plan. Internship is also similar to that plan. That plan didn’t go anywhere, and this one won’t either and will soon be forgotten. It is appropriate to mention an introduction at the beginning of this discussion.

The economic system that was established about 38 years ago and was initially supposed to be neither government nor private, neither capitalist nor socialist, but rather more cooperative, is not an economic system, but in fact an economic looting accompanied by military suppression. This economic looting always benefits the powerful, smugglers, and those who do not abide by any laws. In this economic system, everyone does whatever they want based on their power. From the beginning of the establishment of this economic system, we have witnessed two issues: one is the lack of order and discipline in the economy, and the other is the absence of any opposing political voices. This is what we call our economy. For example, in one period, this economy shows itself in the form of government coupons and rationing, which means nothing but the looting of the powerful. This means that anyone who was close to power could easily take goods, sell them in the free market, and make huge profits. Any opposing voice had to

I mentioned this introduction to get to the same internship plan that you mentioned. We are currently witnessing widespread unemployment among graduates, which according to their own statistics reaches up to 30%. According to official statistics, one million people are added to the unemployed population annually. In such conditions, for example, I may send my son or one of my relatives to any economic enterprise instead of standing on the street. This terrible unemployment actually puts a cheap and free workforce in the hands of capitalists. Now, as the saying goes, they have given from the caliph’s pocket and said that these cheap laborers should go and learn in businesses without any rights. When the economic foundation is shattered and thousands of young people are unemployed in this country, I don’t know what this plan is supposed to accomplish.

Are interns who are not required to have insurance records exempt from social security coverage?

See, it was previously mentioned about the master-apprentice program that if these individuals were employed after a year, the government would pay two-thirds or a portion of their insurance. But this matter currently has no definite situation. Of course, when an economic enterprise wants to hire someone as an intern to use their workforce, considering that insurance in Iran has one of the highest rates in the world at 30%, it is clear that no employer is willing to pay such insurance fees. The employer wants free labor, then they want to pay for their insurance!? It is natural that if the employer is supposed to pay anything, they are not willing to accept that intern. But keep in mind that if the employer pays the minimum wage, they can demand that the intern do work for them. But when they are not paying any wages or insurance, they should not expect the intern to do any work for them. Therefore, in my opinion, this is a failed program.

This plan reminds me of the old days when some people would gather children from the streets in the summer and send them to stand at the door of a shop so they wouldn’t misbehave! When there is no income or insurance, who is willing to go somewhere and work?

You raised the issue of unemployment and job problem and said this is not a job. In this context, the concept of employment is brought up. What does employment mean to you?

My definition of a job is specifically “the level of participation and responsibility of an individual in the social production cycle.” But if we consider this definition, we must say that in Iran, we almost do not have a job. Firstly, we do not have a social production cycle, and secondly, the level of responsibility and position of any individual is not specified anywhere. Therefore, if we want to define a legitimate job, we must first say that this current economic system collapses, the authorities take their previous jobs, and then an economic plan is formed by several teams of experts who have seen different countries. Then the level of responsibility of each individual in the position of the social system is determined.

Creating jobs requires an economic plan. As I mentioned, the entire governing system, with its constitution and all the governments that have come and gone, have never had an economic plan. We have also witnessed this economic collapse in other countries such as Turkey, Pakistan, and Latin American countries. The economy of these countries is neither a systematic capitalism nor a systematic socialism. This economic collapse is only specific to military governments or governments that have come to power through a coup. Millions of people are homeless, millions of children and women are on the streets, and a bankrupt economy is the result of these governments. In fact, governments that do not want to abide by any laws and only want to be an absolute ruler, interpret existing laws in their favor. During the time of the Shah, it was more or less the same.

Unemployment in Iran is also a result of such economic mismanagement. You see, after 38 years of government, what do we have now? Based on official statistics, I say: between 4 to 5 million young people have dropped out of school; between 60 to 70 percent of economic workshops have shut down; between 10 to 11 million people are addicted. These are the results for which no solution is considered. This government cannot find a solution for this issue. The long-term vision document is also a continuation of this current situation. The problem is that they take money from oil sales and distribute it among a group of powerful people. Nothing is spent on building factories or infrastructure. Whatever has been done has been wasted on corruption and contractors. They have spent 20 to 30 percent and transferred the remaining 70 percent abroad. According to the head of the Chamber of Commerce, two billion dollars of Iranian capital is invested outside the country. There is no doubt that

The only way is for these individuals to bid farewell with the power of God and say we couldn’t. They must have the courage to tell the people that we couldn’t use the power that was entrusted to us.

Mr. Saqqafi, let’s go back to this internship plan. Some analysts believe that this plan is a cover-up for the weaknesses of the certificate-based education system and will not lead to a reduction in the unemployment rate of university graduates. What is your opinion on this matter?

No plan is executable in this chaos and corruption that rules here. They come up with a plan in two days, put some people to work and create a job for them, and in four days it falls apart. How do you expect to paint a swamp? It won’t take the color. The foundation of the economy is ruined. This economy has no plan. Every plan needs a group of executors. Everyone, from bottom to top, is corrupt. The officer of assets is corrupt, the officer of education is corrupt, the officer of municipality is corrupt, the officer of execution is corrupt, the judiciary is completely corrupt; they say it themselves, we don’t say it.

One of the criticisms of this plan is that one-third of the minimum wage is considered as the paid salary for interns. Is this method not a way to combat unemployment through exploitation?

It is possible for someone to work for one or two months for free or with one-third of their salary. As we can see now in many cities, many people work below the official wages. This is due to the extreme need and pressure that forces them to do any job. Someone who only works to avoid starvation does not have a job. This is actually a form of forced labor. The person will leave this job as soon as they can. Another reason why people accept such jobs is because of pressure, meaning that, for example, a girl goes to work to avoid staying at home and enduring the pressure of her brother and father, and she is satisfied as long as she can cover her transportation costs. We know that girls go to small towns for 300-400 thousand tomans and work as secretaries. Or a child is forced by their family to work in order to avoid hanging out in the streets and getting involved in addiction and other issues. They will escape from this job as

See, this one-third of the minimum wage they have mentioned, doesn’t even cover the sixth development plan. This shows that when the government reaches a dead end, they disregard their own laws. This is not the first time we have witnessed such issues. In my opinion, their economic system has not brought them anywhere and they are drowning, so they are trying to save themselves by any means necessary, hence the proverb “a drowning person will clutch at a straw.” They break this law to bring in another law. When this plan doesn’t work, they might come and announce a plan for unemployment tomorrow! During the 17th century in England, anyone who was on the streets and unemployed was identified and arrested as a vagabond. They would say that the person either had to sell their labor at the cheapest price or if they were unemployed, they would beat them until they bled. Of course, in Iran, they also implemented this issue in some way and called it “fighting

An internship program was implemented experimentally in eight provinces in 2016. Is there any data available on the results of this experimental implementation that can lead to better predictions for the future?

The statistics we have are always very different from government statistics. For example, if you notice on the website of the Association of Workers’ Rights Defenders, we provide statistics every year for inflation that we have calculated ourselves. Our method of calculation is to directly go to shopkeepers, supermarkets, and businesses and compare prices from last year to this year to extract statistics. As a result, our statistics are always different from government statistics. Regarding inflation, they once said it was a certain number, and then announced that it was around 10%, but the statistics we have are more than twice these numbers. Unfortunately, there is no independent statistical center in Iran and the statistics are government-run. The statistician is also a government employee; all it takes is for their boss to tell them to report a certain statistic and they will do so. As a result, the statistics presented for the internship program are not reliable. But the statistics we have show that the success of this program has been close to zero

If you think something has been left unsaid, please let me know.

I believe that some of those who are considered to receive astronomical salaries, have only proposed such a plan to empty the petition. Otherwise, working for free has no meaning in the job market. If it was about working for free, people would prefer to stay at home, and on the other hand, employers are not willing to pay a salary to someone who is not skilled. Of course, it is heard in many companies that they use these people as a trial for two or three months and then say that you did not perform well in the trial and end the relationship with them.